Dwarf Noise (Solved)

Using MOD devices
#54

I for sure have maxed both gain input and output for the dwarf while experimenting this go round, and I’m at the point where I have to set my headphone amp to gain stage 3 at max to hear the sounds. However, the noise still shows in my recordings, which is why I’m super vexed.

I took a moment to record the noise I have after checking the hum destroyer for improvements.

Here is the audio clip at max level with no normalization. This will crackle and pop because my dwarf was max gain on I/O I begin to have crackle and pops if I gain over 60% on the input, and in fact, as I rotate the encoder, from 60% to roughly 67% I get steady stream of crackles and pops from the unit as I turn the encoder, and then random pops that occur while nothing is running.

This is just a clip of what should be silence.

Now here it is normalized, please turn down your volume and adjust as the normalization really amped the clip.

When you hear the dip in noise, it’s when I muted the dwarf input in my mixer.

The base noise I don’t think I’ll ever shake. My audio interface is set to my normal recording levels, just enough for solid green indicators on my signal input with minor flickering.

The dwarf is at -6dB at the mixer with a +6dB gain on volume, everything else is -20dB on gain with -97dB on volume. So theoretically those should be silent and shouldn’t cause an issue.

I also unplugged every synth, one at a time and used the hum destroyer on each synth in the set up as well as the dwarf. Nothing changed at all. So maybe this is just the base noise I am dealing with?

Maybe you can identify this sound?

I will load up an empty pedal board tomorrow and retest, but most of my testing has been done with a non connected board.

I think a part of my issue is that I’ve become hyper focused on achieving an unrealistic goal that can really only be accomplished with track mastering.

I know for a fact I need the DI and stagebug, without them the dwarf is too noisy to work with in a recording set up, and those 2 items and the new power supply is a huge part of my success.

I attempted to remove the stagebug and DI after messing with my mixer for a bit, and that’s when I heard the warble sound with an extreme level of noise. New PSU solved the warble, and the isolator and DI handled the majority of the noise.

I’ve thrown every solution I can think of at the problem, I’m hesitant to return my isolation transformer as it gives me peace of mind knowing it will protect my gear as well as mitigate any grounding issue, but in the same breath I have 4 power conditioners that seem to be just as functional.

In case those links don’t work (they don’t play on my end in my browser) here is a link to the files Dropbox - Mod Noise - Simplify your life

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#55

Hey Ian

Thanks for the super informative - not at all ranty - post - it’s extremely useful to have this information explained so clearly. And I hear exactly what you’re saying - I agree that using a plug with a plastic earth pin is probably not the silver bullet for this issue - but just for the record I used my Dwarf power supply on my Duo just now and while there was some mild hiss audible there was no high pitched whine - so my purely instinctive conclusion would be that there’s some strange interaction going on between the Dwarf and its current power supply - I hope someone much more qualified than I will be able to do some proper testing on this to find the cause but I can honestly say just by switching to a different appropriate power supply the whining noise has gone…

I hope that clarifies things and thanks again for the detailed response

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#56

Thanks for the recordings - very helpful.

It’s odd that you’re having to set your mixer to only -6 on its gain control. That doesn’t seem right - I’d have thought you should be able to put it to -20 like your other devices. Wonder if your dwarf unit is faulty. What happens if you try using the headphone output instead of the normal outputs (you’ll need a splitter cable)? Do you get a higher level into the desk then?

Does the hissing go away if you set the input level to zero? If so that indicates the issue is somewhere around the input preamps. Can’t remember what you said you’re plugging into the Dwarf - was it a synth?

In terms of the input/output lights on the Dwarf; I think green just indicates the presence of a signal but it might still be too small. I’d suggest turning up the gain so they’re flashing red when you’re playing your loudest, then backing off by 10% to give a bit of headroom.

Don’t suppose you’re in London (UK)? If so we could get together to compare Dwarfs!

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#57

Hey Ian,

I don’t know why the dwarf needs to be gained so high on my mixer.

I use the dwarf as an effects box in my set up. So all synths go into the mixer, then I can direct whatever synth I want to main out 2 which feeds into the dwarf. The dwarf returns to the mixer on input 5.

I’ve decided to pull out the dwarf and make a small testing set up without my mixer and just focus on the dwarf with a synth direct into the input.

image
image4032×3024 3.69 MB

Here is my focused testing set up.

I’m running my 0-coast direct into the dwarf, and out of the dwarf into my steinberg audio interface. I’m recording from there and into my phone. Everything is connected to a power conditioner from one outlet.

If there is no noise on my recordings, then that will imply that there is something failing in my set up, which I’m suspecting my bluebox mixer power supply.

If it’s also silent, then that means I can send back this isolation transformer most likely, as I have 2 independent set ups with 2 mixers, and I can run each off of a single outlet.

I’m going to begin testing shortly and begin recording.

And no, I’m in the US on the west coast :confused: would be cool to meet some people here one day

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#58

looking forward to these new test results!

i’ve been following all these Dwarf-related noise reports with interest… i was an early reporter of noise issues on the Duo, and have been quite pleased with what’s become possible on that unit as well as the DuoX.

i’m still pretty old-school, though; haven’t yet received my Dwarf! :stuck_out_tongue: …so, we’ll see, won’t we!..

(i’m also sufficiently old-school to be enamoured of semi-colons; i’ll use them at every possible opportunity! lol)

cheers!
.pltk.

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#59

Hey Plutek!

So I’m recording currently, taking a minor break.

Be very careful with the normalized one, it’s a very boosted version of the silent recording and gives a better detail of what sort of noise that is being generated. Turn the volume down.

The track with audio is just to prove that the audio comes through nice and clear at the gain settings I have set. Any effects are actually coming from the Strega as I patched my 0-coast into the external input.

So far I have discovered 2 things

  1. The dwarf is 100% noise free in this signal path using the original power supply. Input gain at 37% with no ability to gain higher without peaking the inputs and outputs of the dwarf. Output at 75%. Board is completely empty with inputs patched directly to output.

  2. There is something failing in my big set up. My guess is the power surge I experienced before I was able to surge protect has damaged my mixer power supply.

I will be providing just the silent output recordings for this configuration, and then with the new PSU. I will also load my shimmer board and test with that.

Here is the folder that contains the first recording tests with supplied PSU: Dropbox - Mod Test 2 supplied PSU - Simplify your life

Second test with double insulated after market PSU:

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#60

beauty; that’s great news!

well, booh; that’s significantly less great. :frowning:

power to you! pun intended, of course. :wink:
onwards!

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#61

To be honest, I’m actually really relieved, that means the issue isn’t with my unit; it’s with my mixer (only PSU I haven’t replaced in my set up yet due to them not selling replacements)

I’ll verify with my big Yamaha mixer. If that has similar results, then I’ll be finding a proper PSU for my bluebox.

I’ve replaced all other PSU’s for my gear after that surge and kitted out my electrical with power conditioners.

I’m gotta run some errands real quick and I’ll get back at it.

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#62

I’m considering this solved as the dwarf is quiet without unacceptable noise.

Here is an audio clip of my shimmer board trying to handle my Strega. I will need to be careful with messing with these synths while connected to the dwarf.

There is still a light hiss, but I’m guessing that has more to do with the fact that my instruments are powered and it’s intrinsic to dealing with powered instruments.

In the middle of that clip, you hear a volume increase due to me shifting the blend potentiometer on my Strega into the raw sound. As I move closer to 100% dry on the Strega blending, the signal peaks the dwarf input and output.

Something in my set up is causing the noise issue, I’ve ordered a new PSU for my bluebox and that is the only thing left for me to replace in the setup that is having noise issues.

This has been a really fun adventure, and I’m glad to know that the dwarf is not the issue in my particular set up.

I returned all of the gear purchased during this testing period sans power conditioners, as I need them.

I need to test my dwarf on an amp to continue assisting with the issues that you are all still facing.

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#63

I’m having a serious noise issue with my dwarf and I read your post ("…crush this issue") and I just have to ask - have you decided not to crush that dwarf and use the pliers instead? I’m guessing not many people will understand this one.

#64

Tbh I’m not grasping what you’re implying.

The solution in my instance, and many others; is a double insulated, groundless power supply.

I tried everything else that I could do for troubleshooting noise in this thread, and we verified the result.

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#65

Sorry for the confusion. We were talking about the dwarf and you said “Let’s crush this issue”. I immediately thought of the Firesign Theater album “Don’t Crush That Dwarf Hand Me the Pliers”. Completely unrelated to this topic or anything else in any of the forums.

I am having the noise issue though. I’ve tried everything I can think of to eliminate it to no avail. I do have a Trippl-Lite circuit tester and it shows that the mains have an open ground on one circuit and a hot-neutral reverse on another. Even the UPS shows open ground. Yesterday though I don’t think I was having any trouble - I don’t see how I could have missed it. There’s no doubt that the house wiring is pretty messed up, though.

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#66

Unbeknownst to many, this alone is a major electrical issue. Other than increasing tenfold the risk of shock, when harmonics are introduced and your polarity is reversed, noise goes up tremendously. If you have fluorescent or low-quality LED lights in the house, much more so.

The graph below is a very low noise power grid in the spectometer:
image
(Very low noise at around 35Hz. I would say most of our homes would have at least this amount of noise.)

Then you turn on fluorescent lights, and here’s what happens:
image
(Notice the massive disturbance up until 60 ms. That’s the transformer firing up, but as you see the noise at about 35 Hz that was minimal now is a solid red line and its harmonics go up to 70Hz.)

Then you turn on your computer and router:
image
(Noise is even stronger.)

What is the solution?
Fixing the grid for one, then applying good quality filtering on your audio equipment power mains.
The spectogram of a good audio studio would be entirely green/blue.

As a consequence of the ground being open/faulty in the house.

Although in theory – please notice the bold italic! – the ground being open also means the ground pin is not connected, it might be the case that your house has an electric installation of the TN-C type, whereby the ground and neutral are connected all the way to the mains. That triggers the circuit tester to show a faulty ground, but the ground is actually physically connected to the neutral. This is the way circuits were wired up until the 60s in most of the planet, and as recently as the 2000s in some South American countries.

(A TN-C connection means that, if lightning strikes the power grid and the neutral thus gets loaded, if you touch your fridge you get electrocuted. If that’s what you have in your house, I would recommend getting it fixed.)

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#67

QuestionMarc

The amp is otherwise relatively quiet. What really concerns me is the open ground circuit and the hot-neutral reverse circuit. Given that I’m still alive I apparently have never touch one appliance plugged into the open ground circuit while also touching another plugged into the-neutral reverse, but I don’t think the results would be pleasant.

Just turned the fluorescent light off. Noise level the same. I’ll turn off the computer in a while and see what that does. Worth noting however that the noise doesn’t occur when the duo is plugged in to the amp, or when nothing is plugged in to it.

Now powering the dwarf with a Truetone CS-12 I get no noise. My only concern about that is that the output the dwarf is powered from is rated at only 1mA. The CS-12 is rated at 3A for all outputs. I’m only using 4 other (9V) devices, so - assuming I know the way this works - if they max out their rated amperage that’s only 550 mA total, leaving 2.45A for the dwarf.

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#69

meaning that:

a. your audio source (guitar, bass, synth) might have grounding issues, a blown capacitor, a leaky diode, etc. That’s more likely if such source is plugged to power mains (a synth) and/or if you have a pedal in between also fed the AC (try a different source);
b. cabling might be at fault, simple poor shielding in one end is enough (try a different one);
c. gain settings within the Dwarf are too high (work with those, go from zero to audible and stop there);
d. Power supply of Dwarf is faulty, leaking and/or not properly isolated (try another one);
e. reverse-wired AC mains are putting strain in one or more of your switching adapters (try another AC outlet);
f. least and less likely but not impossible, the plug and/or shielding within the Dwarf is faulty (try the other input).

Just to name a few.

It doesn’t have to be your own: the LED bed light of your neighbour upstairs; the soldering machine of the exhaust repair shop 2 miles from you; the fluorescent lights at the gas station near you, and so on. Just check what happened in Wales for more than a year: an old TV knocked out 4G towers in the entire city every time it was turned on.

(Which is why filtering/conditioning the power lines has to be done locally.)

Good.

In another post, @stevebeige said:

If that’s the case and you’re using less than 1A total with your other outputs, you have nothing to worry about. A power source unit can provide more current (A) than needed, it’s when it provides less that you get in trouble (overheating the PSU and damaging the Dwarf).

As you state,

which is more than enough.

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#70

Hi all, and happy new year!

I’ve been fighting for hours with my Dwarf and I can confirm that a great part of the noise in my case cames from the PSU.
I finally hooked the device to a Elektron Digitakt PSU, and all the hiss and digital noise was gone.
The specs of the Digitakt PSU is Class II (witch by the way is the norm for all my synth and they all are quiet = grounless, double insulated) 12V, 2A center positive. It worked with a Zoom Livetrack PSU as well, which as similar specs.

So maybe a lot of the problems might be resolved if Mod Devices looked into the kind of PSU’s Elektron, Eventide, Make Noise, Critter & Guitari, BlackStar, or Electo Harmonix use (for the brands I have here).
(Or maybe they have, I guess there’s a good reason for their own choice of PSU)

Just figured I’d share my experience with noisy PSU’s :wink:

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#71

I solved my noise-issue completely with this 28 Euros DI-Box. The noise is completely gone! In my case it has been a ground loop issue.

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#72

Happy that you managed to solve the issue.

We are aware of the solutions/improvements that some of the PSUs that you mentioned bring. Yet, we can’t advise you to use it because they are not compatible with the certifications that we have in the device.

#73

Hi Jon thanks for this info.
Does this mean that there are safety hazards using those PSUs with the Dwarf, even though it’s ok on other equipment ?

#74

One must be aware that this solution (as well as others elsewhere in the forum) are for NON-grounded power supply units.

When it comes to musical equipment, is it believed that somewhere else in the signal chain – mixer, amp, house PA, etc – there will be a reliable ground, therefore allowing loads to flow to the earth when needed. However, this is a somewhat risky assumption for electric, steel-stringed instrument players. Being that the current flows all the way to the strings of a guitar or bass (the bridge of such instruments is electrically connected to the amplifier), it is a real risk that a loaded neutral or some electrical discharge will reach the hands of the player, or even the mouth of the singer who touches the microphone.

I am assuming MOD needs the grounded PSU because of its being designed to be – among many other things – a single stop device between guitar and amp. (I won’t get into the nuts and bolts of certification in Europe, but I bet the 3-prong PSU was a requirement.)

It is safer for a synth because these are not reacting electrically to the amplifier in the same way the pickup of a guitar is. The former emits a line or balanced level signal from an output transformer that can be isolated. The latter has the amp electrically interacting with the magnetic field of the pickup.

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