More data on the tuner topic. As soon as @brummer mentioned that he does not have MDX on hand, I’ve tried to gather more exact data than just complaining about “nothing works”.
I’ve used a static tone generator to provide a constant signal, and eliminate all the human factor and inconsistencies caused by live string strumming.
Each photo below is a result of streaming constant sine frequency to the tuner for at least 5 seconds.
Tuner determined frequency numbers very precisely (step of 0.01 hz) - for example 220.02 reading really matches me streaming 220.02 (actually I am impressed)
To get full 5 bars indication here - we need only a deviation of 0.37hz which stands for -2.9 cents for A3 note, which is. let’s say, demanding precision for a regular human being with a guitar.
Therefore it looks to me like a some sort of “scaling” problem. Something like MDX indication expecting different units than Dwarf, for example.
I hope this data might help to shed some light on the issue root cause.
Please let me know if I can do any additional useful measurements, like to determine borders of the bars in higher resolution, check on other base note or something.
Okay, this looks like the old Tuner UI of the DuoX. That one surly didn’t match the new tuner.
For the new tuner I’ve implemented a new interface that could handle the high precision output of the new tuner. Seems that one is missed in the DuoX firmware.
@falkTX As far I remember about the old tuner widget, it should be 10, not 16, to mach the range of the old widget (±50 cent).
Unfortunately that will lead to resolution of 5 to 10 cents per bar. Means when the tune is 4.9 cents off it will be shown as in tune. when the tune is 5 - 9.9 cents off, one bar will be shown.
Any reason why not using the new widget on all devices?
time and resources spent on them, which then need verification on all Duo and Duo X variants too.
the new tuner was not even in the plans for 1.13, we always assumed it would go into 1.14 but as that may take a long time to appear I pushed to have the tuner early as to not have your efforts wasted.
the odd thing is, me picking 16 as the fallback value is based on Increase resolution to 0.01 cent · moddevices/mod-ui@fde3938 · GitHub
so that is wrong… but earlier versions of the same code didnt even have this extra multiplication factor…
I can try to switch default value to 10 and see if that works.
I just do some calculations with the old versus the new implementation, and unless I didn’t make a mistake the multiplier should be 1 , not 16 and not 10, to match the resolution of the old implementation. Only difference will be that the new been really musical cent, while the old was some kind of percent (only roughly match).
Now that I read your post I remember the 16, it leads to a 0.4 cent resolution which needs special handling on the UI side.
220.0 - 220.6 = [A3]( 4.7 cents center bar size, upper half)
220.7 - 221.9 = [A3] Bbar ends on 14.8 cents from 220
222.0 - 223.2 = [A3] BBbar ends on 24.6 cents from 220
223.3 - 224.4 = [A3] BBBbar ends on 34.2 cents from 220
224.5 - 225.7 = [A3] BBB Bbar ends on 44.2 cents from 220
225.8 - 226.4 = [A3] BBB BBbar ends on 49.6 cents from 220
440.0 - 441.2 = [A4] (4.7 cents)
441.3 - 443.8 = [A4] BBar ends on 14.88 cents from center (440)
443.9 - 446.3 = [A4] BBBar ends on 24.6 cents from center (440)
… here I’ve got some job to do and interrupted the test, but progression looked the same so far.
Looks much more sane to me than it was.
As far as I understand ± 4.7 cents are considered to be “on target”, and each vertical bar except for the fifth are adding about +10 cents relative to center. Fifth bar is somehow shorter and is about 5.4 cents long (relative to center). Anyway it is total of ~50 cents range up from the note, which I believe how it worked before.
Would be able to test with a real guitar in about two hours, but seems to me like it should be much better.
Ages ago somewhere on this forum I commented that I don’t use the built-in tuner as it doesn’t respond well to high notes - anything about C5 seems to not register consistently and my instrument (harp) goes from C2 to A6. Haven’t updated yet but will do today
Oh, that’s cool! Any plans to extend it to cover higher pitches? I know a lot of people use the Dwarf with guitars, but not everyone - and a shame to have to use an additional tuner as otherwise it works so well!
Will try with new update tho’ as don’t have newest version on my Dwarf
Wonder how is it possible to tune with precision like that, even with ideal frets. String naturally changes it’s frequency through time, being higher when strummed and going lower and lower while note sounds. I mean, it seems to me like we are dealing with a range here rather than a single value for the string frequency. This range can reach two digits of cents of width (depending on a string thickness and a fret I guess), how do you choose some specific point in that range to apply that 0.02 cents precision?
You’re exactly right. It’s because I don’t trust my own ears, and all the factors you mention mean that ultimately it’s a meaningless distinction. I can get my guitar (it’s an equal tempered instrument anyway) in tune - more or less to my satisfaction - and then when I get together with even one other person that all goes out the window.
I often get “out in the weeds”. The ultimate goal here is to create and enjoy music.
AFAIK tuners have a window size over which the pitch is calculated. I think it has to do with the number of samples which are then averaged to produce the result and makes the pitch detection less jumpy and easier to read smoothing the true string frequency response. I could misunderstood the explanation, but the accuracy is that of the averaged samples.
I also use the same Turbo Tuner, splitting the signal before going into Dwarf to have a live intonation check for fretless. I didn’t compare the two yet, because I see them as different tools: Dwarf tuner for tuning the open strings and Turbo Tuner (strobo) for checking the intonation mid-playing.
The tuner have a accuracy of 0.01 cent. On the DWARF the remaining cents been shown as value.
The bar indicators on the DWARF, that are now 3, have from top to bottom the accuracy of 0.1 cent, 1 cent and 10 cent. The top bar is reduced to a thin line in order to makes it less confusing when tune the guitar, but helpful when you do the intonation.
