MOD is at a crossroads - and needs your input

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#306

No, not at all. Sorry if I didn’t phrase it properly. What I meant is that Duo X users waited a long time until our devices had the same functionalities of the Dwarf (I think they only came with 1.12-RC1?) We saw a lot of updates be “Dwarf-centric” over the months, while long-standing issues with the X remained unsolved.

(I understand, shortness of staff, too much on everyone’s plates, etc etc.)

I had the same assumption twice, including with Adobe. At one point, the answer was always “your system is too old.” It was version 5.5 when the new was 6.0, just about two years later. So support was always lacking and backporting just ceased after one year.

Precisely, @Elk_wrath. All major upgrades are paid. But you can live without them because your computer does not depend on that software.

Now, when Apple or Microsoft stop supporting the OS, then you might have issues. That’s the situation with hardware: you depend on the operational system.

I agree with @james that MOD would likely move forward from one version once it’s stable and that the goal is not to leave unhappy users behind. But my entire point was that adoption of one such scheme – paid upgrades and/or membership – is something for a company with a solid market share and with a good user base whose systems just cannot be easily replaced. That’s what Adobe did.

(Mind you that Apple went the other way past Steve Jobs: unpaid OS upgrades and much more longevity for their computers.)

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#307

This is a different issue though. It’s about availability of updates per device rather than the payment for those updates.

This difference here is that Adobe is made to work on any hardware (computer) and requires ongoing support for new hardware. MOD devices wouldn’t have this problem. You have a device with a working release, it’s not going to stop working because the hardware doesn’t change.

Why would you not be able to live without an update on a MOD device if you current release still works?

You could just as easily say that free updates are for companies with a solid market share that have enough other forms of revenue to cover the cost of ongoing software development

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#308

Also I think what MOD would offer would be significantly more friendly than what Adobe offers. Adobe don’t do paid ugrades, they do subscription based license. That means you can’t use their software at all unless you continue paying

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#309

[edit: sorry this is out of sequence with the current discussion - wrote it part-way through a massive catch-up!]

If things do survive past the reboot I’d implore you not to dumb things down for the sake of guitarists who want simple presets whilst frustrating those of us who love MOD’s flexibility.

A technically straightforward solution that would leverage community engagement would be to have a collection of “System” pedalboards. These would be
curated by trusted people in MOD
or the community.
-Crucially each Pedalboard could have one or more tags / keywords assigned to it to allow people to find it.

  • Add an" Instant Pedalboard" button that brings up a browser that would enable
    people to quickly navigate the collection by keyword and preview the sounds before fully loading the pedalboard. Controls would be pre-assigned to allow them to customize the sounds without having to get fully to grips with the UI.

Some dev work would be needed for the modified board browser, and for a system to allow community members to contribute, but it would mean that much of the workload could be shifted to the community for curation, board creation etc.

I think this might help to give you the quick-win you’d need, whilst allowing willing but non-developer community members to contribute. I suspect there are quite a few who would pitch-in.

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#310

I hope my posts are not hitting you or anyone in the wrong way, @james. I do have a problem with words, tbh. But just to clarify:

I’m aware of that, the story of my $1600 licence getting obsolete in less than 2 years predates their adoption of the subscription model, which came past CS6.

I firmly believe that too. However, on this topic

that necessarily means that upgrades for all MOD devices should be released simultaneously, for the sake of harmonising the product line and keeping customers happy. MOD should take that into account, so that users are not left waiting for improvements/features. Hence my comment on users of Duo X watching all new features going to the Dwarf. Hope this clarifies the point.

I sure would be able to use it indefinitely. Like my MOTU, which still has firmware 1.01 from 2004. And it works.

HOWEVER

the software suite that came with it stopped working since Mac OS 10.11 and drivers became scarce after that. So it kind of became a glorified mixer in my rig, since recording with it became difficult. The RME however kept working and the company still supports firewire interfaces to this day. But there was a hiccup when Mac OS 11 was released: Apple just didn’t release any firewire drivers. For almost 2 months RME and others were unsupported for users who upgraded, until Apple finally gave in and published the required files (or SDK, not sure). RME has current drivers/software for MacOS 12, including their killer mixer app.

(What if a user wakes up one day with their non upgraded MOD and find that overnight Chrome or Firefox pushed some updates that block MOD’s connection entirely for them but not for others? How soon can the company issue a fix/update?)

I might not have made myself clear there. Apple is a hardware company. Adobe, Bitwig, Studio One, etc etc etc – they all make software. So I was pointing to the fact that hardware makers benefit from providing free upgrades. That’s why my sentence started with “mind you”: Apple realised how bad it was for themselves to keep Jobs’s 2 upgrades cap on their computers and people were flocking over to Win 7 at the time, which was very stable (for Win). Monetising from upgrades and forcing users to buy new computers every 2 years was bad business for them, so they chose to invest in the “ecosystem” – other devices and services, such as Music, Pay, etc. Which is what Gianfranco said he envisions for MOD further down the road.

Pardon if I’m wrong again, but I have the feeling that the gavel for paid upgrades has already been hit. If so, I wish MOD good luck and sincerely hope the reboot or some other takeover as a whole takes place, so that we continue to have these fantastic devices.

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#311

Not at all! It’s an interesting topic that has a lot of things to consider and I think exploring all sides of it is helpful. I’ve always respected your opinions here too they are very well thought out.

That may or may not be true but I think this is irrespective of the paid or free debate. This is a synchronised or not synchronised debate I guess that also has plus and minuses to each side. A plus side to releasing the Dwarf release early means they get it early rather than waiting for the Duo X to be ready too. If it’s ready for Dwarf then why not let people start using it?

Right but that’s why MOD intentionally don’t have a pc software that needs to be maintained

That is a realistic concern. I think that’s actually the only concern in terms of functionality breaking over time. You also raised another debate here separate to the free/paid which is “how quickly can you make a fix?”. It’s hard to say how quickly it would be done but I imagine if a fix is made it would be backported to all releases that it can be easily added to and if it can’t, then users would probably get a free update to a release with the fix. I don’t think anyone at MOD would expect people to pay to restore functionality.

At that time, windows upgrades were also paid. Both Apple and Microsoft transitioned to free upgrades at that time when they were both extremely well funded and well established.

I’m not sure but i dont think so. As I’ve mentioned I’m no longer part of the team, I’m speaking as a community member. Right now I think all opinions are still being considered so I do think this conversation is still constructive. I’m am speculating though :sweat_smile:

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#312

Is this project extinct?

The link is not working anymore and there is no @deathbeard user in the forum :frowning:

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#313

Maybe try here, there is at least an email address mentioned…
https://bitbucket.org/agraef/faust-lv2/src/master/

Or try to contact him/her on the Blokas forum:

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#314

This should be the plugin project GitHub - micahvdm/profiler

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#315

Hello, this is me! Project is not dead, just had some health issues recently…hoping to pick up development in the new year again, probably middle January. I’ll look at adding it to mpb in the new year too! In its current state, it’s running really well as a profile player. I will look at uploading all the profiles I’ve created for it. Will also need to do a PR for browsepy and Mod-UI to support file uploads.

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#316

Just a question about PRs on GitHub in general. Do they get looked at even, as it seems like majority of them are ignored and quite old…would it not be better practice to comment and close them than to just leave them? It deters devs from wanting to contribute if they see a bunch of old open PRs with no response and unattended. Makes me think that Mod is not so interested in being open source. This platform has many very able devs that I’m sure would love to contribute, but it doesn’t feel like we can…just some thoughts…

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#317

While I agree that some response to open PRs would be better than none, keeping them open is actually a good practice.

If you look at closed PRs you see that plenty of things get merged, but the past 1-2 years things have slowed down of course (particularly for mod-ui).

Considering there isn’t exactly a big dev team to review and test PRs it makes sense that things don’t get merged so fast, but some response would be helpful.

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#318

It is only me reviewing those now, with some much going on and PRs not related to things in immediate plans it is hard to “justify” time spent on adding more features.

This is not as simple as merging a request, it needs to pass through verification to ensure it does not break something else (so this involves getting other people involved) and then also needs to be maintained for the foreseable future.

Don’t want to discourage contributions, but better to set expectations. Such patches and PRs are typically reviewed when we have something related to it coming up. For example, imagine 1.15 would focus on improving MIDI handling, we would gather any extra MIDI related things to put into the release

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#319

Hi there - despite being the one backing this project to almost last breath, indicating I can wait, I actually never received my dwarf.
I was asked to donate 150€ which I was willing to do but after receiving my device. Well - it never came!
Can someone update me whether it will arrive to my place at all?
Regards
Albert

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#320

Where exactly you told us that?
That was not really an option available on the survey. If you add the extra 150€ (that will be converted into a gift card for plugins) your Dwarf will be shipped immediately. We are actually just adding stock for it when the units are really ready to be shipped so you won’t run the risk of adding the extra 150€ and waiting months to receive your Dwarf.

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#321

Thanks for the reply, but can you tell me why the dwarf I should receive will only be shipped immediately after I paid 150€?
I feel somewhat deflated by this experience. Would love to receive my dwarf, start using it, become involved in the community and maybe spend more on the project - like €150 , etc.
You would by now have limited amount of trust if you were me - I would have thought

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#322

I believe that the reason was explained in the updates and messages about the reason we need this solution. This would be opening an expectation and if we were doing it for all the cases the company reboot would never be possible to happen.
Unfortunately on my side, I can’t really answer your request. I don’t have such decision power.

I wouldn’t say that this is a matter of trust in you as a person. We can’t be anything but thankful for your understanding, patience, and even availability to pay extra for your pledge. Yet, this would be an approach that if was the offer available would make the reboot completely impossible to happen so the plans would not work at all. I believe that you can understand the reason.

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#323

go full-business, as your product only has competiton from Zoia/Empress only, really.
I’m a Fractal Audio AxeFx3 User, coming to mind your product could be my future unit instead (while the AxeFx3 costs 4, 5 times more and is only capable of being used by one instrument in mono, really).

But please manage to have an open platform for sandboxing Modules, as of which like Cycling74.com is nested into Ableton…!

My biggest wishes on a new unit would be:
More ins and outs (so the unit also can be inserted into bigger ecosystems).
Some good soft-bypass.
Possibly a new DuoX aside from your now-product.

#324

How about both? Let the free software community handle the bulk of the software side of things while forming a Social Purpose Corporation to build and sell the hardware.

If not an SPC, perhaps a B Corp, or co-operative and see if you can team up with Zythian and Synthstrom. I suppose an SPC could be run alongside a larger retail co-op that represents multiple companies. It depends on how everyone wants to play together and be represented.

The afforement entities are in other parts of the world. Synthstrom is in New Zealand and Zynthian is in Spain. So, a Turtle Island (USA) corp would be more of an official “licensee”, other contenient manufacturer for their products. Which would be cool, I think. Preferably with our own take on those items. I see Zythian is using Mod-UI.

note:
I nearly forgot to mention Passinwind! They make open source preamps and some other stuff.

Maybe even reach out to the guy behind AV Linux and the teams behind Ubuntu Studio and Fedora Jam.

It’d really be something to get all the music related free software groups to unify under a non-profit and help each other out a bit more. Parallel to that, the hardware makers could get together to sell a full suite of products that run the software.

Personally, I’d go in on forming a SPC. I’ve wanted to start a First Nations musical instrument making company similar to Native Audio is for pedals but, mainly with guitars, basses, and touchstyle (i.e. Chapman Stick) instruments and accessories. I realize you’re non-Native but, that’s okay. lol.

I was planning on waiting a few more years before seriously seeking anyone else to embark on this venture with. It should definitely wait until 2026 before filling any paperwork, for tax reasons.

Some of the reasons I’d like to do this are

  1. I don’t have a 1:1 copy of any of my basses or guitars and I want to modify the nuts off of them. This would be probably the best way to build my own “Signature Collection”.
  2. Many tribes are historically known to have good woodworkers and craftspeople. I want to continue that and raise NDNs up with me. It’s something that can be done at home or a workshop could be set up on nearly any rez. It’d be dope to have people all across Turtle Island building for us. Especially with rent these days, if we could eliminate spending thousands a month on a warehouse to create this stuff…
  3. Simply to share our cultures
  4. I want to work for myself and diversify my income between this, a clothing/et. al. company, music studio, and social network – the latter will definitely cost money and not be profitable for a long time but it goes hand-in-hand with the other things and is a primary focus
  5. I think the most realistic way to do this is to team up with a number of other people and jumpstart off already existing products and projects.
  6. my day job pays alright and I don’t have a house or demonspawn to hemmorage my bank account.

https://diy.passinwind.com/
https://www.talkbass.com/wiki/pw3b-lpf-open-source-musical-instrument-preamp/

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#325

Fantastic ideas!

Just my observation as someone who has taken a step back (age, relocation, no gigs… boo-hoo it sucks to be me) - I see the original kickstarter project as having served a purpose way beyond just getting the hardware out the door. I’ve considered selling my dwarf and footswitch extension just because of inactivity, but it’s been so useful and so incredibly flexible for me in the past that I’ve decided to set up a separate (physical) board just to experiment.

Not being a hardware person I can only speak in generalities about the hardware, but it seems to me that the hardest part has been done - the physical product has been produced and is being used in “real life” situations (gigs) and it’s being sold in retail outlets. At the same time the software development community is thriving. Granted - some extreme combinations of plugins are maxxing out the dwarf’s cpu but I think that’s to be expected. As they used to say in the early PC days - “Grove giveth and Gates taketh away.”

I love the idea of an SPC. I’m not a business person and have no desire to learn the intricacies of business entities, but I’d love to see something like this get off the ground and thrive. Tapping the resources of underserved communities, producing something useful that generates revenue and then channeling it back into that community would - I believe - create a feedback loop that would greatly benefit everyone involved - from the producers to the consumers.

I could ramble on but I’ll leave it here for now.

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