MOD is at a crossroads - and needs your input

[Elk_wrath]

In principle I agree with no extra subs or cost; however, most of the stuff I use on my computer is 100% paid updates.

I use native instruments komplete 13. Right now komplete 14 is on presale where I get an upgrade for a third of the retail cost, this summer a sale it will drop to a sixth of the cost iirc.

The version updates add new features and instruments, or updates to the main instruments.

Bitwig also is a paid update. I buy the x.0 version, and I get all updates free between x.0 and y.0, but need to pay to upgrade to the next full version.

Right now the x.0 is version 4.0, and y.0 with be version 5.0.

As long as I get to choose version upgrades, and when to upgrade for a reduced cost, I would find that to be acceptable. That would also be with the understanding that I still have full device functionality with older firmware.

That being said, I am not upgrading to komplete 14, because the update wouldn’t provide value to my current version based on my needs. Maybe when they drop komplete 15 I’ll upgrade, but it will largely depend on if kontakt 7 is a critical upgrade for my needs.

[Austin73]

I think although yes it’s the same , it’s sort of classed as a new product . All updates on say ableton 10 were free. If you go ableton 11 you start again.

Obviously you take your choice and agree it’s not worth changing sometimes. But to add that to a hardware device I think will be challenging in the end.

Zoom ms100BT failed miserably because of extra cost for extra fx and the eventide was similarly low. It only got better if you bought a max you could port the full fx to the core for free.

[James]

@QuestionMarc

But the LEDs indicating sound level in the MOD are a much needed functionality that allows you to properly gauge the signal coming in, and to charge for that doesn’t seem fair.

I don’t think anyone at MOD would say that is something people should pay for. That’s part of the core functionality, not an optional update.

@QuestionMarc

If the owner of a much more expensive unit watches the new features and improvements of the lesser unit, making them pay for what users who spent less money got for free is a big no-no.

This is kinda suggesting that updates would only be paid on the Duo X and not on the Dwarf no?
Dwarf users would have to pay for updates too

@QuestionMarc

You may argue here that the “upgrade” is different than a bugfix “update” and that the mere fixing of problems could be made free and the big upgrades be paid, but that brings the issue of having different tiers of customers, with the ‘paying’ ones getting more attention from support than others.

I assume paying customers would get more features, not more support. I don’t think a major release would ever be left with any bugs and no support. Even until now, there has always been an effort to fix all bugs before moving to a new major release. This is seen with the Duo X LE where they didn’t have access to new features but still had support on 1.11.

@QuestionMarc

It is a nightmare in logistics, trust me. (Yes, the word here is logistics. You are producing different chunks of code to be delivered independently for different users. Apple can do that, pushing bugfixes for OS 10.9 up to OS 12. A small company just cannot.)

I think in general, once the release is bug-free, then you move to the next release. There should be very few reasons why an older release would become unstable.

@QuestionMarc

Worse yet, if there’s a new plugin on the block, that people want BUT they must upgrade to use it, you’ll incur in a situation where users are rightfully frustrated because you’re pushing an add-on that has an added cost for them.

That’s pretty reasonable IMHO. You pay for new functionality. If Ableton Live users want to use a new plugin that supports MPE, then they have to pay to upgrade to Ableton Live 11.

@QuestionMarc

Mod has shipped products to the market without a minimally acceptable instructions manual. Please don’t tell me the wiki was a manual. It’s a format that’s uninviting even for reference, let alone to be the source of information. And it was lacking as it was.

I agree. I think this was a symptom of biting off more than could be chewed. I think everyone at MOD wanted a proper manual and it was being worked towards but unfortunately was neglected too long. Actually that is something I was working on in the weeks before leaving and I imagine it is still one of the first priorities.

@Elk_wrath

As long as I get to choose version upgrades, and when to upgrade for a reduced cost, I would find that to be acceptable. That would also be with the understanding that I still have full device functionality with older firmware.

I think that’s the critical point and I don’t think anyone at MOD would allow users to have a broken experience if they didn’t pay and I imagine that if that situation ever happened they would probably offer a free update. I know these guys and I know they want the users to be happy as much as they want the company to survive

[QuestionMarc]

@James

This is kinda suggesting that updates would only be paid on the Duo X and not on the Dwarf no?

No, not at all. Sorry if I didn’t phrase it properly. What I meant is that Duo X users waited a long time until our devices had the same functionalities of the Dwarf (I think they only came with 1.12-RC1?) We saw a lot of updates be “Dwarf-centric” over the months, while long-standing issues with the X remained unsolved.

(I understand, shortness of staff, too much on everyone’s plates, etc etc.)

@James

I assume paying customers would get more features, not more support.

I had the same assumption twice, including with Adobe. At one point, the answer was always “your system is too old.” It was version 5.5 when the new was 6.0, just about two years later. So support was always lacking and backporting just ceased after one year.

@Elk_wrath

In principle I agree with no extra subs or cost; however, most of the stuff I use on my computer is 100% paid updates.

Precisely, @Elk_wrath. All major upgrades are paid. But you can live without them because your computer does not depend on that software.

Now, when Apple or Microsoft stop supporting the OS, then you might have issues. That’s the situation with hardware: you depend on the operational system.

I agree with @james that MOD would likely move forward from one version once it’s stable and that the goal is not to leave unhappy users behind. But my entire point was that adoption of one such scheme – paid upgrades and/or membership – is something for a company with a solid market share and with a good user base whose systems just cannot be easily replaced. That’s what Adobe did.

(Mind you that Apple went the other way past Steve Jobs: unpaid OS upgrades and much more longevity for their computers.)

[James]

@QuestionMarc

What I meant is that Duo X users waited a long time until our devices had the same functionalities of the Dwarf (I think they only came with 1.12-RC1?) We saw a lot of updates be “Dwarf-centric” over the months, while long-standing issues with the X remained unsolved.

This is a different issue though. It’s about availability of updates per device rather than the payment for those updates.

@QuestionMarc

At one point, the answer was always “your system is too old.” It was version 5.5 when the new was 6.0, just about two years later. So support was always lacking and backporting just ceased after one year.

This difference here is that Adobe is made to work on any hardware (computer) and requires ongoing support for new hardware. MOD devices wouldn’t have this problem. You have a device with a working release, it’s not going to stop working because the hardware doesn’t change.

@QuestionMarc

All major upgrades are paid. But you can live without them because your computer does not depend on that software.

Why would you not be able to live without an update on a MOD device if you current release still works?

@QuestionMarc

But my entire point was that adoption of one such scheme – paid upgrades and/or membership – is something for a company with a solid market share and with a good user base whose systems just cannot be easily replaced. That’s what Adobe did.

(Mind you that Apple went the other way past Steve Jobs: unpaid OS upgrades and much more longevity for their computers.)

You could just as easily say that free updates are for companies with a solid market share that have enough other forms of revenue to cover the cost of ongoing software development

[James]

Also I think what MOD would offer would be significantly more friendly than what Adobe offers. Adobe don’t do paid ugrades, they do subscription based license. That means you can’t use their software at all unless you continue paying

[ianr]

[edit: sorry this is out of sequence with the current discussion - wrote it part-way through a massive catch-up!]

If things do survive past the reboot I’d implore you not to dumb things down for the sake of guitarists who want simple presets whilst frustrating those of us who love MOD’s flexibility.

A technically straightforward solution that would leverage community engagement would be to have a collection of “System” pedalboards. These would be
curated by trusted people in MOD
or the community.
-Crucially each Pedalboard could have one or more tags / keywords assigned to it to allow people to find it.

• Add an" Instant Pedalboard" button that brings up a browser that would enable
  people to quickly navigate the collection by keyword and preview the sounds before fully loading the pedalboard. Controls would be pre-assigned to allow them to customize the sounds without having to get fully to grips with the UI.

Some dev work would be needed for the modified board browser, and for a system to allow community members to contribute, but it would mean that much of the workload could be shifted to the community for curation, board creation etc.

I think this might help to give you the quick-win you’d need, whilst allowing willing but non-developer community members to contribute. I suspect there are quite a few who would pitch-in.

[QuestionMarc]

I hope my posts are not hitting you or anyone in the wrong way, @james. I do have a problem with words, tbh. But just to clarify:

@James

Adobe don’t do paid ugrades, they do subscription based license.

I’m aware of that, the story of my $1600 licence getting obsolete in less than 2 years predates their adoption of the subscription model, which came past CS6.

@James

Also I think what MOD would offer would be significantly more friendly than what Adobe offers.

I firmly believe that too. However, on this topic

@James

It’s about availability of updates per device rather than the payment for those updates.

that necessarily means that upgrades for all MOD devices should be released simultaneously, for the sake of harmonising the product line and keeping customers happy. MOD should take that into account, so that users are not left waiting for improvements/features. Hence my comment on users of Duo X watching all new features going to the Dwarf. Hope this clarifies the point.

@James

Why would you not be able to live without an update on a MOD device if you current release still works?

I sure would be able to use it indefinitely. Like my MOTU, which still has firmware 1.01 from 2004. And it works.

HOWEVER

the software suite that came with it stopped working since Mac OS 10.11 and drivers became scarce after that. So it kind of became a glorified mixer in my rig, since recording with it became difficult. The RME however kept working and the company still supports firewire interfaces to this day. But there was a hiccup when Mac OS 11 was released: Apple just didn’t release any firewire drivers. For almost 2 months RME and others were unsupported for users who upgraded, until Apple finally gave in and published the required files (or SDK, not sure). RME has current drivers/software for MacOS 12, including their killer mixer app.

(What if a user wakes up one day with their non upgraded MOD and find that overnight Chrome or Firefox pushed some updates that block MOD’s connection entirely for them but not for others? How soon can the company issue a fix/update?)

@James

(Mind you that Apple went the other way past Steve Jobs: unpaid OS upgrades and much more longevity for their computers.)

You could just as easily say that free updates are for companies with a solid market share that have enough other forms of revenue to cover the cost of ongoing software development

I might not have made myself clear there. Apple is a hardware company. Adobe, Bitwig, Studio One, etc etc etc – they all make software. So I was pointing to the fact that hardware makers benefit from providing free upgrades. That’s why my sentence started with “mind you”: Apple realised how bad it was for themselves to keep Jobs’s 2 upgrades cap on their computers and people were flocking over to Win 7 at the time, which was very stable (for Win). Monetising from upgrades and forcing users to buy new computers every 2 years was bad business for them, so they chose to invest in the “ecosystem” – other devices and services, such as Music, Pay, etc. Which is what Gianfranco said he envisions for MOD further down the road.

Pardon if I’m wrong again, but I have the feeling that the gavel for paid upgrades has already been hit. If so, I wish MOD good luck and sincerely hope the reboot or some other takeover as a whole takes place, so that we continue to have these fantastic devices.

[James]

@QuestionMarc

I hope my posts are not hitting you or anyone in the wrong way, @james. I do have a problem with words, tbh

Not at all! It’s an interesting topic that has a lot of things to consider and I think exploring all sides of it is helpful. I’ve always respected your opinions here too they are very well thought out.

@QuestionMarc

that necessarily means that upgrades for all MOD devices should be released simultaneously, for the sake of harmonising the product line and keeping customers happy.

That may or may not be true but I think this is irrespective of the paid or free debate. This is a synchronised or not synchronised debate I guess that also has plus and minuses to each side. A plus side to releasing the Dwarf release early means they get it early rather than waiting for the Duo X to be ready too. If it’s ready for Dwarf then why not let people start using it?

@QuestionMarc

the software suite that came with it stopped working since Mac OS 10.11 and drivers became scarce after that.

Right but that’s why MOD intentionally don’t have a pc software that needs to be maintained

@QuestionMarc

(What if a user wakes up one day with their non upgraded MOD and find that overnight Chrome or Firefox pushed some updates that block MOD’s connection entirely for them but not for others? How soon can the company issue a fix/update?)

That is a realistic concern. I think that’s actually the only concern in terms of functionality breaking over time. You also raised another debate here separate to the free/paid which is “how quickly can you make a fix?”. It’s hard to say how quickly it would be done but I imagine if a fix is made it would be backported to all releases that it can be easily added to and if it can’t, then users would probably get a free update to a release with the fix. I don’t think anyone at MOD would expect people to pay to restore functionality.

@QuestionMarc

Apple realised how bad it was for themselves to keep Jobs’s 2 upgrades cap on their computers and people were flocking over to Win 7 at the time, which was very stable (for Win)

At that time, windows upgrades were also paid. Both Apple and Microsoft transitioned to free upgrades at that time when they were both extremely well funded and well established.

@QuestionMarc

Pardon if I’m wrong again, but I have the feeling that the gavel for paid upgrades has already been hit.

I’m not sure but i dont think so. As I’ve mentioned I’m no longer part of the team, I’m speaking as a community member. Right now I think all opinions are still being considered so I do think this conversation is still constructive. I’m am speculating though

[gianfranco]

@redcloud

Using the profiler plugin from @deathbeard on discord https://faustlv2.bitbucket.io/profiler

• this device could fill the empty spot in market guitar amp modeling of profile players only (kemper and QC are both profilers and players). If Kemper would release a new “Kemper Player” under $1000 would take a huge market percentage. This is the only chance to be successfull with an HW solution. Otherwise you have to offer something more (superior quality software) than competitors like Kemper and QC at a minor price.
• Profiling could be sold for cheap as a service on the cloud.
• Build a consistent store where it would be possible to get free and commercial pedalboards and plugins as well.

Is this project extinct?

The link is not working anymore and there is no @deathbeard user in the forum

[jetztgradnet]

Maybe try here, there is at least an email address mentioned…
https://bitbucket.org/agraef/faust-lv2/src/master/

Or try to contact him/her on the Blokas forum:

MOD Devices Building More LV2 Plugins? (MOD Dwarf)

[redcloud]

This should be the plugin project GitHub - micahvdm/profiler

[micahvdm]

Hello, this is me! Project is not dead, just had some health issues recently…hoping to pick up development in the new year again, probably middle January. I’ll look at adding it to mpb in the new year too! In its current state, it’s running really well as a profile player. I will look at uploading all the profiles I’ve created for it. Will also need to do a PR for browsepy and Mod-UI to support file uploads.

[micahvdm]

Just a question about PRs on GitHub in general. Do they get looked at even, as it seems like majority of them are ignored and quite old…would it not be better practice to comment and close them than to just leave them? It deters devs from wanting to contribute if they see a bunch of old open PRs with no response and unattended. Makes me think that Mod is not so interested in being open source. This platform has many very able devs that I’m sure would love to contribute, but it doesn’t feel like we can…just some thoughts…

[dreamer]

While I agree that some response to open PRs would be better than none, keeping them open is actually a good practice.

If you look at closed PRs you see that plenty of things get merged, but the past 1-2 years things have slowed down of course (particularly for mod-ui).

Considering there isn’t exactly a big dev team to review and test PRs it makes sense that things don’t get merged so fast, but some response would be helpful.

[falkTX]

It is only me reviewing those now, with some much going on and PRs not related to things in immediate plans it is hard to “justify” time spent on adding more features.

This is not as simple as merging a request, it needs to pass through verification to ensure it does not break something else (so this involves getting other people involved) and then also needs to be maintained for the foreseable future.

Don’t want to discourage contributions, but better to set expectations. Such patches and PRs are typically reviewed when we have something related to it coming up. For example, imagine 1.15 would focus on improving MIDI handling, we would gather any extra MIDI related things to put into the release

[Albert_Pilarski]

Hi there - despite being the one backing this project to almost last breath, indicating I can wait, I actually never received my dwarf.
I was asked to donate 150€ which I was willing to do but after receiving my device. Well - it never came!
Can someone update me whether it will arrive to my place at all?
Regards
Albert

[jon]

@Albert_Pilarski

I was asked to donate 150€ which I was willing to do but after receiving my device. Well - it never came!

Where exactly you told us that?
That was not really an option available on the survey. If you add the extra 150€ (that will be converted into a gift card for plugins) your Dwarf will be shipped immediately. We are actually just adding stock for it when the units are really ready to be shipped so you won’t run the risk of adding the extra 150€ and waiting months to receive your Dwarf.

[Albert_Pilarski]

Thanks for the reply, but can you tell me why the dwarf I should receive will only be shipped immediately after I paid 150€?
I feel somewhat deflated by this experience. Would love to receive my dwarf, start using it, become involved in the community and maybe spend more on the project - like €150 , etc.
You would by now have limited amount of trust if you were me - I would have thought

[jon]

@Albert_Pilarski

Thanks for the reply, but can you tell me why the dwarf I should receive will only be shipped immediately after I paid 150€?

I believe that the reason was explained in the updates and messages about the reason we need this solution. This would be opening an expectation and if we were doing it for all the cases the company reboot would never be possible to happen.
Unfortunately on my side, I can’t really answer your request. I don’t have such decision power.

@Albert_Pilarski

You would by now have limited amount of trust if you were me - I would have thought

I wouldn’t say that this is a matter of trust in you as a person. We can’t be anything but thankful for your understanding, patience, and even availability to pay extra for your pledge. Yet, this would be an approach that if was the offer available would make the reboot completely impossible to happen so the plans would not work at all. I believe that you can understand the reason.