MOD is at a crossroads - and needs your input

Hello @unbracketed Brian,

so you didn’t have time inventing preferable presets and buying presets for a specific genre or sounding like (insert your favorite hero here) was the way to go for you.

Guys, we are looking forward to the future. What different genres of pedalboards do you want mod devices come with? What sounds did you expect to come with that weren’t there in the first place? How many different presets per genre would you expect to be in a preset pack and what would you pay for?

I once had a Line6 HD500 and I paid ca. 75€ for 3 packs… in times of Helix I assume preset packs might be free but the hardware is even more expensive.
They had dreated the financial sweet spot between creating presets (and what they paid their creators for) and what users wanted to give them for.
But this is what @gianfranco already asked for in the survey.

Greetings and God bless, Marius

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This is perfectly ok as long as you are satisfied with what the Dwarf brings out of the box.
Paying once means getting what’s available with/in the Dwarf at this point in time.

Regarding free updates forever: this might still work as long as there are enough people paying for updates and stuff, so there might be some hope for that, but I would not count on that in the current situation.

Most people just hate subscriptions, but for a company this makes income and hence funding for development a bit more planable.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind either paying for updates as they come (or even crowd-fund certain features) or a subscriptions as long as I get to keep using whatever I had at the time I might decide to stop the subscription (with the option to restart it whenever I want to get new/additional stuff).

I would guess that a big chunk of users fall into this category. And that is what would be again possible right after the current funding round closes and (assuming the goal is reached) the new company gets access to everything again and can re-open the store, pedalboard site and downloads.

I’m actually quite happy with the Dwarf - missing a lot of things I need but most things do. I have managed to squeeze what I can out of it and added it to the arsenal.

I quite like the look on friends faces when I play synth and drums on it and loop stuff, whilst playing guitar!

I bought it for shiroverb and the midi stuff which I very happy with.

My concerns are that of a more human thing. Just don’t want Mod to reboot and then end up going the same way. It’s too much to ask everyone involved in my mind. But I do genuinely hope it does succeed.

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Maybe for the subscription could work some kind of patreon thing where you can vote what do you want that month/week/etc? maybe thematically? something that adds to the experience, not cutting corners and selling them again? I mean, I don’t know how viable would be develop or porting a plugin monthly (and free for the subscriptors, ofc), but I think that wouldn’t be detrimental for the non subscriptors

edit: thematically, I mean, pedalboard of x artist because the band released something recently or its been x years since a famous release, designed by x artist, whatever

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@unbracketed Sure, I’m a Helix user. I have a bunch of premium IRs but I didn’t pay Line6 for them, and I can use them with other modelers, or inside my DAW.

As for the premium presets, they are largely the reason why so many people still make semi-regular videos about devices that are almost a decade old (Helix/Kemper) because that drives the preset sales. So Line6/Kemper enjoys a ton of free marketing that users selling the presets generate. Now, Line6 has a marketplace for those and I guess MOD could have too but I’m not sure how much revenue that would really generate for such a niche device. It will probably have to be a part of a larger monetization strategy.

Quick disclaimer - presets are extremely overrated. Multi FX boxes may seem self-contained but they aren’t. There’s the rest of your rig to consider (your guitar, your interface/monitors, your ability to gain stage into the output) which can make good presets sound bad or at least different than intended.


@jetztgradnet @Austin73 and others - I realize that MOD is kinda in a tight spot. I also know that it’s much easier to deconstruct than to construct and I hate when people do that without offering alternatives, but I feel like this needs to be stated:

No one else (that matters) in the hardware space does paid updates. No one. Even if we disregard the competition that doesn’t force users to pay for anything other than the device (in order of relevance Helix, FM3, Zoia, Poly Digit/Beebo, any number of multi-fx units by Boss/Nux/Hotone/Valeton, etc., etc.) and go straight to Akai which sells additional content for their MPC devices, you’ll find that they also do free updates (the most recent ones including for example - amp sims, gained them a bunch of community goodwill).

So I guess the question is simple, is your device so superior to the above-mentioned ones that you can get away with being pretty much the only hardware company charging for the software updates?

Totally agree with the paid updates . I think the idea is not in the best interest of the product. People will quickly move away to something newer, better and cheaper or keep with what they have already and not dip into the MOD realm.

For something that costs over £400 or even 500 to the unlucky ones that haven’t received their ‘gift’ it’s a bit cheeky to expect we relentlessly dip in to support.

Sorry just my thoughts. I’m stepping away from the thread as I feel my negativity dragging both me and the room down.

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I think you’ve summarised things perfectly…

What I’d like to add is one of my biggest frustrations with the whole lack of clarity on how to get the best out of both DUO and DWARF was MOD did fairly limited user guides - yes the community stepped up and solved many issues but when I first got my DUO the few official YouTube videos didn’t go into enough detail re signal chains/gain staging etc. it involved a lot of trial and error, which left me feeling a bit sore after buying something with very little help available (without spending hours and hours searching online) to get the best out of it.

While this may seem trivial it was symptomatic of a lack of accessibility to users who don’t want to go in too deeply or even care about open source etc - and while I have big issues with Teenage Engineering’s move to being an over priced slightly gimmicky company (IMO) they have always smashed it on the marketing and communication side of things - that doesn’t make their products better but it does open up the idea of buying them to a huge audience…

I hope there is a reboot and that MOD survives as I’ve loved using the DWARF so far as they are unique and powerful - however I do feel that its long term survival will require a much more welcoming - fun! - and smarter approach to singing the praises and opening up the huge possibilities of these products - an in-depth how to / set-up / trouble shooting section on the website - richer audio/video content / more pro users showing off inspiring pedal boards and or midi / synth setups etc - it’s something other companies have done and it’s both educational and inspiring - and makes you want to try and dig deeper into the device. Giving real world examples - how do you set it up best for guitar, bass, vocals, keyboards - beat making etc - would make a big difference

I really hope this isn’t the end but when the restart happens it needs to factor in a comprehensive communication strategy

:facepunch:t2::+1:t2::heart:

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Hi @Austin73
Your comments are pretty helpful to me as I have been waiting for some sort of resolution with the company troubles before buying a dwarf, but I’ve still been very tempted regardless.
Did you ever get chance to download anything from the website before it went down?
I’m still finding it hard to know that there’s enough in the box to start with, in case the website never returned?

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Hi Mark, I think I got most things down plugin wise before the demise.

I don’t have the latest firmware beta but don’t need it to function happily.

Feel free to message me direct with any questions or ideas you might have and will be happy to go through it with you.

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The company I work for has turned two last month and we develop HW and SW for customers in different fields (automotive, displays, medical…), often for prototyping. This is actually not what we want to do :smiley: – we want to develop our own products but lack the $$$. So we do client work and then use the money to develop our own stuff. I am not saying that this is the way for moddevices… but despite the supply chain troubles (which hit us hard), we were able to keep the boat afloat and things start looking better. But yeah. Product development is hard. Really hard.

Also, what helped us a lot is participating in publicly funded research projects. Two of our applications were declined but one got through. We get 80% of the wages back and the work to be done is manageable and even helps us to improve our own stuff. If you need help with forms or communication, I’ll gladly lend you a hand… I happen to know a little German.

re: paid updates, I would buy them if they were reasonably priced and included for lets say 1y after the purchase (two major updates). Those not willing to go that route should be able to compile the SW from the latest branch on Github.

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@gianfranco

I’ve got the feeling the MOD project needs to exist as a hobby, at least for a while.

feeling. gut feeling.
Allowing it some time to detox from al factors that eat energy and gently allowing some room for things that create motivation and energy.

Family first. Don’t jeopardize their future and by that I mean having a healthy dad in both financial AND psychological matter.

Gut feeling:
Grant yourself the time to take a step back and look at the big picture and let it sink and settle.

Is there a way to
1: create a MVP (minimum viable product) that helps the MOD idea, the seed, the core SURVIVE? (continuity). Things like an alternative platform for firmware and plugins, things that keep some core people tied to the project etc. but
2: While these people might have other dayjobs, there is a gentle way to consolidate and keep going what there is and perhaps make something new and focused grow out of it, smartened by past experiences.

I think that everything that has to do with money is burnt right now and the credibility is below zero, in both a literal and figurative way.

Everything you need to fix costs money. Step away from business, production, logistics…
I’m afraid the crowfunding people must be disappointed and the future of MOD is one without money for a while.

There are some skilled people here in various fields.
We’ve got specialists and generlists.
If you want MOD to live, make it about PEOPLE and SOFTWARE.
That is where the authenticity is and where you still have a chance to grow again in short notice.

I repeat
MY GUT FEELING

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Regarding paid updates, I think it’s a bit of a risky road, because if you are withholding updates that fix bugs then you are basically holding devices hostage (at least for users effected by those issues). Ok, so we separate and provide free bugfix updates but charge for new feature updates. Suddenly you are going to have to start maintaining many different software versions and backporting and testing changes to many different software configurations. This quickly can make development crawl to a halt with a small team.
Maybe it could work, but you have to be careful not to dig yourself into a maintenance nightmare. I’ve been in that situation at my work and it sucks the life out of you.

I actually like this idea because it wouldn’t need any additional development and is FAR from anyone thinking that they have to subscribe to make their device useable. Just maybe a private forum for members with the “backstage pass” (or maybe even just use patreon?) and they can vote on which features get worked on first (out of reasonable ones the company suggests), or what curated pedalboards get built next, etc.

I also really like the idea of crowdfunded features as an alternative to subscriptions or pay for features after they’re complete. This is probably further out since feature adds are going to cost development money, but this way they are paid for (at least partially) before development even begins. Maybe there isn’t a big enough group of users though who would participate since non MOD owners wouldn’t have any reason to buy in. AND you have to make sure people don’t feel like you are trying to crowdfund “features” that are really just bug-fixes. That can be tough too.

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Thanks, I appreciate that!

I don’t like to the upgrades paid idea. At my sense, make most more sense for a user delay the almost of possible to buy the equipment because at this way you will have the most of features when you buy it. I think that Jetbrains’ IDEs have the same problem. Also, some Patreon users have too, like Listening Time Podcast, where when a user subscribe, they have access all the previous paid episodes.

Also there is the problem that @ssj71 pointed. It makes much more sense that the features are sold individually, just like DLCs. This model is commonly used in games.

Thinking about development, when a DLC requires a structural update, the game is updated to a new version, but the DLC things will only been applied for users that buy it. If a user would like to have a feature (i.e. play the DLC things), they need first to update the game.
Translating to MOD ecosystem, if a user would buy a specific feature, it’s necessary to them have at least the last required OS version.

It’s just like Android and iOS phones, some apps only can be used (or some functionalities) if a user have at least the minimum required OS system .

At last, I like the Cities Skylines business: they offers a lot of DLCs, but the big DLCs (the non cosmetic DLCs) have also a free update, so they make happy all the entire public (I think). The game have 7 years and the base game (without DLCs) is soo evolved compared with the version published at seven years ago.

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I would like to ask to the MOD team (@gianfranco, @falkTX) if there any plans to the next version of mod-ui (or its replacement) have an REST/WS API: A lot of people talk that the mod-ui frontend software doesn’t assist them as them expect, but currently it isn’t easy to contribute or develop a customized frontend.

Actually I think that the MOD team feels that open sourced mod-ui was a problem, because facilitates some “cheap copies” and they had a minimum of contribution by the community. Buy, at my point of view as a software developer, the source quality is the problem (it is most hard to contribute than expected).

I know that is expensive to refactoring the source code (paid someone a lot of time to remake the things that already working apparently is nonsense) and the is no guarantees that at midterm you will have a payback made by open source contribution.

I don’t have no one idea how can solve the “code state” cheaply. So my contributions at this brainstorming thread is:

If you are decided to close the mod-ui source or create it’s replacement, think about to make a minimum documentation of the backend endpoints. So it would be easier to the community contribute with custom frontend. It can be done integrating some REST/Swagger plugin to Tornado server, I think.

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@SrMouraSilva, I second that it would be very nice to have a formal API. There actually is an API in MOD-UI, it’s just not complete. You can see the endpoints here. At some point, they started using websockets for their MOD-UI to Hardware communication. But the webserver endpoints were nearly enough for my needs in the pi-Stomp project (one of the “cheap copies” you refer to). I can obtain the list of pedalboards, then use the bundle, effect, snapshot, etc. API endpoints to piece together all the details of a pedalboard, display them on an LCD, then allow the user to make changes: Load/save a pedalboard, change the preset/snapshot, edit plugin parameters, etc. I did need to shoehorn in a small handful of endpoints/implementations (eg. to get/set parameters), but you can do quite a bit with what is there. To my knowledge, none of it is really documented and it took a lot of experimenting and code groking to form my queries, but if anyone is interested, I can share what I learned. I believe FalkTX has said somewhere in the forum to not rely on any of the endpoints, since they aren’t a formal API and will likely change or go away someday… well, at least on their fork.

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This raises a very interesting question.

If we are in this moment reaching out to the community for help and support, not only economically speaking but also with contributions, there must be some effort to make those potential contributors’ work as easier as possible.

A nice and well documented API, whether is REST or anything else, would draw many more willing programmers to give a hand pushing fixes or improvements to the code. If you want to rely on a community, which is nice, you must facilitate that.

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@randreich @SrMouraSilva I think you should have a look at carla or any other host that can load lv2 plugins. Most provide an endpoint for plugins and parameter. In the end the mod-ui is just a fancy way of interacting with the jackserver and the plugins hosted- very broadly speaking. I know there is more than just loading a bunch of json.
I think if you want to add a mobile ui its best to start in that direction.

I saw the code but I would like to get a formal API, just like you and Tarrasquare73 suggested. Something like this Pedal PI - WebService - API documentation


Beginning of off topic

I wasn’t trying to talk a pejorative way. I’m sorry if you felt it.

Also, my graduate project was just about a “cheap multieffects” using Rapsberry too (https://pedalpi.github.io/). The difference related to the Zynthian, MODEP and pistomp is that I built the source code over mod-host. Then I developed layers, one for each necessary.

But I also was careful to be host agnostic, that mea s:

I started to develop a Carla module (mod-host replacement), but also Carla hadn’t a formal python API. I had contact with Filipe Coelho and he helps me in some unclear things and other things I saw at the mod-ui attempt integration source code.

Another example of the PedalPi’s modularity is that I reused the code to controls Zoom G3 and MS50g https://github.com/PedalPi/PluginsManager-Zoom

End of off topic

Only if your intention is a replacement of mod ecosystem instead of aggregating value, because if you acts at “baremetal”, directly into jack or mod-host instead of mod-ui, probably it will not been integrated correctly with mod-ui and HMI. (I’m not sure, because mod-host appears to have a callback/observer way to notify changes, but I’ve never tested it).

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I will post my opinion, with all due respect to @acunha and everyone else here. I have already posted not only opinions (this is a forum after all) but also ideas, outlined action plans, and proposed ways to mitigate the impending collapse of MOD as per Gianfranco’s public request on this particular thread and elsewhere.

And my opinion is: charging for upgrades is a very bad idea. Here are my reasons:

A. Whereas I understand the effort and investment that goes into upgrading a software, OS or firmware, in the case of the latter there is an inherent dependency that cannot be circumvented. You absolutely depends on the manufacturer’s actions towards their hardware. You can choose not to upgrade from, say, Ableton Live 10 to 11, because you can always look at Bitwig, Logic Pro, etc etc etc. With hardware there is no such option. Even if the core OS is open source, there’s the hardware layer that is not, so one cannot step in and provide an “alternate” OS/firmware.

B. In the case of software, your computer can accept other options and circumventions (like Mandolane’s MIDI fix MacOS’s lack of direct audio/midi routing many years ago). That ensured the continued operation and optimised workflow in the case of a major fumble by the parent company. Other additions, such as dedicated audio routing plugins/software are not essential, but make user’s life very easy. But if your hardware has a control issue, even if a plugin can offer a fix or relief, it ultimately has a problem that needs to be addressed or improved upon. (The DuoX for instance has a persistent crosstalk between channels that is a major problem.) So that brings the uncomfortable decision as to what will be charged and what won’t. Special features and content can be sold separately, but functionality is a different thing. An IR is a good example: you buy them separately for a specific and personal goal. But the LEDs indicating sound level in the MOD are a much needed functionality that allows you to properly gauge the signal coming in, and to charge for that doesn’t seem fair. You MUST separate what is understandable as an extra charge/investment, and what is a due improvement in your device – especially if it costs a considerable sum of money, like the Duo X.

C. The general dislike for paid upgrades has many roots that I won’t dwell into here. Suffices to say that Adobe has a leverage of extreme dependency on part of their users and a longstanding piracy issue due (allegedly) to the cost of their software that made sense – along with massive adoption – to migrate to a subscription model. Other examples given previously are software only; and other companies with hardware like Peloton have gone public, have massive investments, and build their “upgrades” along with a lot of added value and content for a product that has massive adoption. Mod devices hardly have a market share, let alone leverage for one such move.

D. @ssj71 anticipated me here with his take on people having multiple versions of a firmware:

Well, that was already happening with MOD: improvements made for the Dwarf came a lot later than for the Duo and Duo X. If the owner of a much more expensive unit watches the new features and improvements of the lesser unit, making them pay for what users who spent less money got for free is a big no-no.

E. Back when firmware lived on EEPROM chips, even a free upgrade was costly because you had to reprogram the chip or buy a new one from the manufacturer. Many times, upgrades were mainly bugfixes (as it happened with Digitech units so frequently), so the choice of not upgrading meant keeping one’s device somewhat faulty. When flash technology kicked in and an update was possible through USB, that eased the life of users and manufacturers alike. You may argue here that the “upgrade” is different than a bugfix “update” and that the mere fixing of problems could be made free and the big upgrades be paid, but that brings the issue of having different tiers of customers, with the ‘paying’ ones getting more attention from support than others. Also, unless you bring all bugfixes to all users at no cost, you can’t argue with a customer that the problem will be fixed “if you update to our latest version”. It is a nightmare in logistics, trust me. (Yes, the word here is logistics. You are producing different chunks of code to be delivered independently for different users. Apple can do that, pushing bugfixes for OS 10.9 up to OS 12. A small company just cannot.)

F. Worse yet, if there’s a new plugin on the block, that people want BUT they must upgrade to use it, you’ll incur in a situation where users are rightfully frustrated because you’re pushing an add-on that has an added cost for them.

Summarising, charging for curated content, premium assets, special features, this is all valid and acceptable – I would easily pay for pedalboards that take me where I want or close to without having to fiddle indefinitely with the device. Truth be told, some of the pedalboards I use the most were derived from sharead pedalboards from other users – @rogeriocouto and @Beilby are two that come to mind. What’s more, even some features can be paid options, such as guitar synth. Not all users want or need it, so that plugin and the functionality it brings can be an add-on. The same goes for some midi features. Other than paid premium plugins, you can map specific features that can be detached from the current ModOS offering, ship units without them and have them be add-ons. I’d have no problem paying again for Guitar Synth – though I think it still needs a threshold control.

Lastly, let’s not forget this:

Mod has shipped products to the market without a minimally acceptable instructions manual. Please don’t tell me the wiki was a manual. It’s a format that’s uninviting even for reference, let alone to be the source of information. And it was lacking as it was. So, to go and charge more for what once was free and not deliver the basics of a finished product may put you in a very bad spot.

These are my opinions and anyone may disagree.

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