Long-press functions for DWARF footswitches?

[nanomod]

Hi, being new to the DWARF I noticed that footswitch A is used to cycle through pages and only footswitches B and C can be freely assigned in the pedalboard editor while footswitch A can’t.
This way, we only have two assignable footswitches per page, right?

Wouldn’t it be great if we could navigate through pages by pressing longer on the footswitches (for example page-up by long-pressing footswitch B and page-down by long-pressing footswitch C) or vice versa? This way, footswitch A could be freely assignable and we would have 3 assignable footswitches per page.
Of course, this would make switching multiple pages slower due to the long-presses but on the other hand it would add the possibility to navigate pages in both directions which would take us quicker from let’s say page 8 to page 7 instead of going 8->1->2->3…->7.

What do you think about additional long-press A,B,C switch functionality on the DWARF?

[Rom]

Great idea !
If we could have long press for each switch we could have more controls available par page. We could add double-press (like Morningstar controllers) :

• press A
• long press A
• double press A
• press B
• long press B
• double press B
• press C
• long press C
• double press C

[falkTX]

Long press conflicts with the “momentary” modes added in v1.10.
For buttons (duox) and footswitches (duo and dwarf) one can have toggle-style parameters working in momentary mode, so that position-at-rest is OFF, while pressed is ON. (or vice-versa for “momentary off” mode)

[nanomod]

Thanks for your reply @falkTX.
I see your point. Didn’t discover the momentary mode yet. Maybe consider long press for footswitch A only? It could be used to switch pages backwards.

[James]

The other thing is that an effect will activate on the press down so if you press and hold then your effect will come on until the long press is detected and then switch off which is jarring.

The alternative would be activation on footswitch release but that’s not good for timing

The suggestion about long press on footswitch A is interesting though

[nanomod]

Thanks for your attention. Indeed, activation on footswitch release would be required in order to avoid two consecutive actions. While it’s not as immediate as activation on footswitch press, it has been available and well accepted on other devices like Fractal Audio floor units for example. I understand though that it‘s not a viable solution for everyone and probably would require an additional settings section in order to be activated or deactivated by the user. Maybe it’s not worth the effort.

[SrMouraSilva]

@nanomod

Hi, being new to the DWARF I noticed that footswitch A is used to cycle through pages and only footswitches B and C can be freely assigned in the pedalboard editor while footswitch A can’t.
This way, we only have two assignable footswitches per page, right?

I’m also interested! In my case, if I have more than two pages, I’ve starting to press wrong footswitch and do wrong things . But if I’ve the possibility to use the (A) too, two pages will be sufficient for me.

I bought an external midi footswitch controller to try to do less miss “foot” steps.

–

I’ve an alternative:

We have three footswitches.

Currently, on the Control Mode, they works like:

• (A) changes the current page of the control mode;
• (B) changes the current state of an effect¹;
• (C) changes the current state of an effect;
• (A) + (B): go to turner
• (B) + (C): switches between control and navigation mode

I purpose an “expanded mode” by applying the following changes:

• (A) changes the current page of an effect (like (B) and (C));
• (A) + (B) short press: go to the previous page
• (A) + (B) long press: go to turner
• (B) + (C) short press: go to the next page
• (B) + (C) long press: switches between control/navigation mode

@falkTX

Long press conflicts with the “momentary” modes added in v1.10.

I think that we didn’t get some conflict here, because apparently isn’t possible to long press both neighbor footswitches at the same time, right? Because of the action precedence, right?

The biggest problem apparently is a possible relabeling of the (A)
. A “gambiarra” (workaround) for this situation is add an option in the configuration to enable/disable the “expanded mode”, then, the icon in (A) will continue to make sense

–

My inspiration was by Zoom G3:

On its initial version, in a patch (its equivalent pedalboard) there was only possible to put three effects. Each effect can be switched between on/off state with their correspondent footswitch.

After some months, the Zoom company launched a update where now is possible to load six effects in a patch. And instead press the 1+2 footswitches and 2+3 footswitches to change the current pedalboard, its now scrolls between the effects view

Fun fact: Zoom didn’t “relabel” the new Zoom G3 equipment after this change.

–

¹ I’m simplifying here. I know that it’s possible assign the snapshot changes and other things.

–

Merry Christmas for all!

[fer]

About long press in footswitch A (which could work at release), I also think it would be very interesting for example for:

• moves 1 page backward and keeps this backward mode during a time, like 5s

• if an option subpages is enable, changes to subpages 2. Let say we have 8 pages used, short press footswitch A rotates in pages 1 to 4. If we long press, then we go to page 5 and next short press rotates on page 5 to 8.

Apart from that, of course the 3 effect switch mode would be very interesting. Is is planned for release 1.12 or before? An external midi pedal to change pages will be perfect, as no feedback status is needed (you already have the led colours and display)

Regards, Fer

[James]

@fer

moves 1 page backward and keeps this backward mode during a time, like 5s

This could be cool but then if you wanted to go forward again you would have to wait 5 seconds which could be annoying

@fer

if an option subpages is enable, changes to subpages 2. Let say we have 8 pages used, short press footswitch A rotates in pages 1 to 4. If we long-press, then we go to page 5 and the next short press rotates on pages 5 to 8.

Subpages are not extra pages (5-8) but they are pages of knob controls within a selected page so it’s more like pages 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc
Subpages are only used for knobs which you need to touch with your hands anyway so there’s no reason for sub pages to be controlled by foot. In fact I would actively discourage that

@fer

Apart from that, of course the 3 effect switch mode would be very interesting. Is is planned for release 1.12 or before?

Actually, we wanted to have this available at the initial release but there had already been a lot of work done with pagination so that to do this would require a lot more development time. It’s not planned for 1.12 at this stage

@fer

An external midi pedal to change pages will be perfect, as no feedback status is needed (you already have the led colours and display)

This is definitely an option but we would always try to make it possible to do everything from the device without the need for an accessory

[fer]

I think I didn’t explain myself, I was not referring to knob subpages… perhaps I used a wrong name or at least an already used one. What I meant is to separate the switch pages in two groups. In these way all pages are accessible in less presses. Long press goes to page 5 or 1, short press goes to next page and back to 5 or 1. Also what I think is interesting is that you could have for example the effect pages in the first group and loop switches in the second group and it will be accessible faster.

@James

Subpages are not extra pages (5-8) but they are pages of knob controls within a selected page so it’s more like pages 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc
Subpages are only used for knobs which you need to touch with your hands anyway so there’s no reason for sub pages to be controlled by foot. In fact I would actively discourage that

[James]

@fer

What I meant is to separate the switch pages in two groups. In these way all pages are accessible in less presses. Long press goes to page 5 or 1, short press goes to next page and back to 5 or 1.

Ahh okay, I get you now. It’s an interesting idea. I would just be worried that it could be confusing to people and one of our main criticisms currently is that the device takes a long time to learn to use

[Rom]

I dig this thread just after testing the looperative plugin that uses long press and double tap

@falkTX

Long press conflicts with the “momentary” modes added in v1.10.
For buttons (duox) and footswitches (duo and dwarf) one can have toggle-style parameters working in momentary mode, so that position-at-rest is OFF, while pressed is ON. (or vice-versa for “momentary off” mode)

If momentary mode is selected for a footswitch, there still is the solution of deactivating the possibility to use longpress, isn’t it ?
It seams that the double-press could still work though.

@James

The other thing is that an effect will activate on the press down so if you press and hold then your effect will come on until the long press is detected and then switch off which is jarring.

Yes, exactly, but there are some effect that don’t need to be really in a tight timing. For example :

• simple press : activate tremolo
• longpress : activate panner
• double press : activate both

Then if you want to activate the panner only :
→ If everything is OFF, you longpress and get 1st the tremolo ON and 300ms later you have no more tremolo and the panner ON.
→ If tremolos is ON, you have to deactivate by simplepress the tremolo, then longpress and get 1st the tremolo OFF and 300ms later you have no more tremolo but the panner ON.

So when the device would detects that you have longpressed or doublepressed it would cancels the simple-press action.

[James]

Allowing single press, long press and double press assignments on the same button in the Web GUI could be complicated

It works on looperlative because it’s was implemented in the plugin as a multifunction button so the assignment only needs to be momentary

It’s better if this is built into the plugins but I understand that users can’t all just make their own plugins.

Maybe we, or a plugin dev could make a utility plugin the could accomplish this through cv mapping

So the plugin (“multifunction button” or similar) could have 1 button that you assign to as momentary. Then internally it detects single press, long press or double press. It generates 3 separate cv signals (one for each type of press) and each of these could be mapped to any parameters in the GUI. The plugin could also expose settings to the user to set things like the hold duration and double tap speed. It could also have double press + hold

@jesse what do you think?

[Rom]

Could it be simple like this ?

on the 1st page

• switch B
  – turns ON Delay on simple tap
  – turns ON Reverb on longpress
  (so momentary and Groups are unavailable)
• switch C
  – is Tap tempo
  (so momentary, double tap and Groups are unavailable – longpress is still available)

on page 2

• switch B
  – turns ON Tremolo on simple tap
  – turns ON panner on longpress
  (so momentary and Groups are unavailable – double tap is still available)
• switch C
  – turns ON crunch on simple tap
  – turns ON distortion on longpress
  – turns ON bit crucher on double tap
  (so momentary and Groups are unavailable)

on page 4

• switch B & C are use for snapshots
  (so everything else is unavailable)

on page 5

• switch B
  – turns ON resverse on momentary
  (so normal, longpress and Groups are unavailable – double tap is still available)

[James]

There would be a few problems i can see with this

1. You can’t have footswitch groups on the Dwarf because there are already hardware functions that are linked to pressing A+B or B+C

2. Momentary could not be assigned on a footswitch on top of the other types of presses (toggle, hold, double press) because the interactions would conflict with each other

3. If you take away footswitch groups and momentary from the image you mocked up, it could be a good layout for mapping but it would be more confusing for new users which is something we are trying to reduce

4. If you have 2 or more types of assignments on one footswitch, you can only have a label for one, so either the user or the hmi would have to de ide which label to display. This would be pretty confusing in my opinion. If you had a multifunction button plugin then the label would just tell you its the multifunction button

[Rom]

@James

You can’t have footswitch groups on the Dwarf because there are already hardware functions that are linked to pressing A+B or B+C

Mmm… Then I think you could ask directly the ModTeam to remove that function, but I think it is a really bad idea because it works pretty well and is quite useful.

@James

Momentary could not be assigned on a footswitch on top of the other types of presses (toggle, hold, double press) because the interactions would conflict with each other

Exactly ! That’s why I proposed to make momentary unavailable when another function is chosen. And vice-versa.
I thought that only double-tap could work at the same time as momentary, but now I’m not sure it is a good idea…

The way the grouping function works currently seams perfect :
When you chose an assignment to footswitch B - > grouping B&C is unavailable.

@James

If you take away footswitch groups and momentary from the image you mocked up, it could be a good layout for mapping but it would be more confusing for new users which is something we are trying to reduce

Those functions could be activated in the main parameters, a simple checkbox unchecked by deault : activate double-tap and long-press assignment to footswitches. So the new users wouldn’t see those assignments.
The Morningstar midi controllers make it possible be default, didn’t thought it would disorientate to much MOD-users, but I trust you on this one.

@James

If you have 2 or more types of assignments on one footswitch, you can only have a label for one, so either the user or the hmi would have to de ide which label to display. This would be pretty confusing in my opinion. If you had a multifunction button plugin then the label would just tell you its the multifunction button

I see 3 solutions for this :

• more labeling possibilities (adding a label for each simple-press, double-press and longpress, simple-press + double-press, simple-press + long-press…) but it’s way toooooo long possibilities
• split the background color in 3 like this :
  
• having 3 different “colors” : simple-press with white on black, double-press with lowercase, long-press with blink
  For example : when it’s blinking and written in white over black you know you have engaged simple-press + double-press.

[James]

@Rom

Then I think you could ask directly the ModTeam to remove that function, but I think it is a really bad idea because it works pretty well and is quite useful

You indeed can have groups, my bad, I had a brain fart and thought it was referring to pressing B and C at the same time. BTW I am MOD team

@Rom

I proposed to make momentary unavailable when another function is chosen. And vice-versa

Yeah that would work. I just worry people would immediately realise why something was unavailable

@Rom

I thought that only double-tap could work at the same time as momentary, but now I’m not sure it is a good idea…

Yeah I don’t think it would work. You might for example, assign momentary to a tap tempo and then double tap to set the tempo but instead trigger a double press

@Rom

Those functions could be activated in the main parameters, a simple checkbox unchecked by deault :

That’s true, but someone could open a pedalboard made by someone else where a pres and hold is assigned to B and they wouldn’t know why they can’t assign to B momentary

@Rom

I see 3 solutions for this :

• more labeling possibilities (adding a label for each simple-press, double-press and longpress, simple-press + double-press, simple-press + long-press…) but it’s way toooooo long possibilities
• split the background color in 3 like this :

• having 3 different “colors” : simple-press with white on black, double-press with lowercase, long-press with blink
  For example : when it’s blinking and written in white over black you know you have engaged simple-press + double-press.

I don’t see these working unfortunately. There are barely enough characters for one label let alone 3. Also differentiating the label by “colour” or in sections still only gives you one label. In this case “modulay” but the other assignment types might be assigned to controls on other plugins. So imagine single press is assigned to something on modulay while press and hold is assigned to a big muff. The label would only say modulay so you coulding see that it also controls a big muff

[jon]

@James

If you take away footswitch groups and momentary from the image you mocked up, it could be a good layout for mapping but it would be more confusing for new users which is something we are trying to reduce

giving my 1 cent on this subject, perhaps something like this should be implemented on the advance settings of the assignment and not on the main window.

[fer]

@James

it would be more confusing for new users which is something we are trying to reduce

I tend to agree with this. More functions on B and C could be confusing. But in my opinion all this comes from the fact that cycling through 8 pages coul be very annoying…

For example I’m in page 1, and I want to go to page 8. Uppps then I realize I need to go to page 7… overall it means 14 clicks on button A (I hope it has a long life expentancy ).

In my opinion Long-press on button A would be a great benefit, including new users, and does not affect momentary or other functions. For example:

1. Option move backwards: Long-press moves 1 page backwards or enters backwards mode.

In the example 14 clicks on A are converted in 2 long-clicks

2. Option group pages (group 1: page 1-4, group 2: page 5-8). Long-press on A cycles among group pages, and normal press cycles through pages on the group. In the example 14 clicks on A are converted in 1 long-click + 7 clicks.

There are other examples, where option 2 would be even better. And also, opens the door for the next update: 12 pages on Dwarf

[James]

@jon

perhaps something like this should be implemented on the advance settings of the assignment and not on the main window

The checkbox that @Rom suggested could go there

It doesn’t fix the other problems though

@fer

In my opinion Long-press on button A would be a great benefit, including new users, and does not affect momentary or other functions. For example:

1. Option move backwards: Long-press moves 1 page backwards or enters backwards mode.

I think this is the way to go. This plus a multifunction button utility plugin with hmi widgets would solve all the issues here without making things harder for new users