Guitar Amps As Layers of Abstraction - How To Improve MOD User Experience For Guitar Players

I agree with most of your thoughts, the general feeling is that Dwarf wants to be like modern guitar amp modelers but inherits an ecosystem that is not designed around guitar/bass players (even if it is the most flexible on the market). All it needs to be more intriguing for guitar players is a bunch of well made amp plugins and all the tricks here and there under the hood in order to reduce the noise (when I use my other modelers, that’s the first main difference I spot: near zero noise). I’m also afraid that usability also is a big concern for major audience, most “sunday guitar players” (90% of guitar players market, I suppose) wants ease of use at first. Market nowadays offers a lot of good quality products at very low budget and I think that following the mainstream (about usage and sound quality improvements) is something that has to be done, otherwise MOD Dwarf will remain a niche product for nerdy guitar players. The effort to put into the game is still enormous for MOD Devices but not out of reach. IMHO following aspects must be improved to attract more guitar players:

  • Noise reduction at zero level

  • UI usability (think about a simplified UI for Dwarf only like NUX MG30 and the like)

  • 5 to 10 high quality amp modeling plugins (but people will look at figures where other cheap modelers already offer 30 to 50 amplifiers. Cuvave Cube Baby alone has 9 amps).

  • PLUS: top notch profiling feature (dreaming of a Kemper-like subsystem for sharing and selling profiles. Selling opportunity would attract profile creators. Profiling is way easier than coding an amp modeling plugin).

10 Likes

I can sympathize - I agree with your points and have had similar moments of feeling like I spent my creative time on technical matters. It has been interesting to see the evolution from when the Duo and ancestors were conceived largely by and for guitar players but also got a lot of interest from a wide swath of musicians with lots of different interests. I thought the introduction of the ModX was a bet or recognition of the popularity of EDM styles (and remembering that sales volume for guitars pre-pandemic were not something to be optimistic about). The Dwarf looks like it will be a significant upgrade in terms of CPU capability, form factor, and platform usability compared to the Duo and while I’m excited to get mine, I don’t plan on using much as a guitar modeller. I’ve written a detailed comparison elsewhere in the forum and had the same conclusions that the creative experience is much more enjoyable with the dedicated modeller, and I’ll stick with that.

Acknowledging that I and others have clearly achieved some satisfying outcomes, the devices are well capable of producing amazing tones, no question. Especially in the realm of modulated effects, you can make some incredibly freaky, trippy, heavenly, glitchy, drone-y, harmonious, floaty tones. Like you, the building and tuning experience is more tedious and opaque than what I’m usually looking for. It’s also been my experience that the Duo was my only noisy pedal though I was able to tame most of it via dedicated power / battery and lots of gain staging and experimentation.

Now I view the MOD devices more like Swiss Army Knives - something unique that’s useful in many different contexts even if there are other more purposed options available. With the addition of the filesystem, better loopers, and extra CPU I’m hoping to use my Dwarf in several ways:

  • Using backing tracks, MIDI loops, sequencers, and the loopers for jamming and recording demos
  • Using it for vocal EQ and modulation
  • Using it with a battery for busking, open mics, casual gigs
  • Enhancing my one-man-band playing with backing tracks / beats, mixing vocals and guitar, harmonizing vocals and/or guitar
  • Doing some occasional synth work for adding pads and swells to recordings
  • Using it as a Send/Return to generate awesome modulated tones
5 Likes

First I just want to say that we absolutely take this thread seriously. I hope I didn’t give you the wrong impression there. All of your suggestions are super helpful and we definitely intend to work on them!

I can completely understand the sentiment of not wanting to spend time troubleshooting and just wanting to use what works for you to do the thing you want to do which is making music! No hard feelings. I hope you stick around in the forums to follow along with the progress.

I agree with both of you guys and you have pointed out some very valid points!

We do want to make the device easier to use and most importantly easier to get the desired result you’re looking for!

We have put some work into this area. We added the noise compensation tool which was a big improvement! we also added the noise gate into the input and output processing which is another big improvement. We are trying to find better power supplies to include with the device and are doing a lot more to try to make this even better

This is a big one. Our current roadmap has an emphasis on improving elements in the UI to make it act more like how you would expect it to, coming from other environments. We also have a lot of room to make some quality of life improvements here so we really appreciate the suggestions from the community.

We are also looking forward to adding an on device patch builder to make things easier for the middle tier user who has moved past the inbuilt presets but perhaps is still a bit intimidated by the web GUI

On this I couldn’t agree more. Part of it is about curation (presenting the best amps so they are easy to find), Also improving the GUIs of the plugins as well as getting more amp plugins. I’ve been saying it since I first joined MOD. We need more amps! not a large quantity, but just a reliable set across a range of styles. It’s a bit of a chicken egg problem. We need to sell more devices to make the marketplace apealing for amp plugin developers, and we need more amp plugins to sell more devices. So it feels like it moves slowly

Something else that has an emphasis in the roadmap is to improve sharing. The pedalboard feed is a great idea that needs some work. Hopefully we can make some big improvements there soon too!

For sure! there are many other reasons to have the device outside of modeling and we’re happy about that!

7 Likes

just a little correction, I think you didn’t get the profile section. When he said “profiles” he didn’t mean like presets or pedalboards but the capacity of creating a profile of certain amps so it replicates its sound (like the Kemper or the Mooer Preamp Live). In LV2 there is some plugins with this capacity (tubeAmp by Kapitonov, for example). It could be really good for the Dwarf to have something like that to mitigate some of this problems! :slight_smile:

2 Likes

I understand all of the ideas stated in this thread, but would like to offer counterpoint: I came from the Poly Effects Beebo, and as a bassist/guitarist it is MUCH easier to arrive at a usable sound on the Dwarf than it is on the Beebo—comparatively the Dwarf is absolutely for guitar players. At the same time, I’ve also owned an HX Stomp and was frustrated by the limited routing capabilities and limited number of simultaneous effects.

One of the strengths of the Dwarf is inherent in the name of the company—MOD Devices—it’s a modular system, which can either be run as a straightforward pedal chain (again, super easy to set up a simple pedalboard) or be set up like a Eurorack signal chain albeit with many distinctly non-Eurorack sounds. On the Beebo, if there’s an effect you want that isn’t there, you can build it yourself if you understand modular synth well enough. I suspect one can do the same thing on the Dwarf, but I realize that that’s the boundary at which many would rather spend their time playing music instead of knob-twiddling (including myself, which is why I gave up on the Beebo). But it also offers opportunities—jealous that Helix has that awesome polyphonic freeze effect? Build it from components in the MOD Constructor. Heck, exceed it while you’re at it. Curious about the Chase Bliss Dark World? Recreate its capabilities inside MOD.

Again, I get that not everybody wants to take that time and they just want to find the right distortion… there’s plenty on offer already, you just gotta try out ALL the plugins. Yes, that makes for a fairly long session at your computer playing the same riff through dozens of plugins and tweaking the parameters… but it’s still faster than buying a physical dirt pedal, playing with it for a few days or weeks, then buying a new one and selling the previous one on Reverb, etc etc ad infinitum. Of course if MOD does create a Kemper/NeuroDSP style profiler per popular request, you could profile your favorite physical dirt pedal and use it on the Dwarf.

As to the lack of good amp models, the IR loader is clearly the way around that. Even the major players are focusing less on modeling which is expensive and time-consuming on the development end and are focusing on IRs. Perfect example: on this forum and on the Line6 Ideascale, people have asked for years for models of amps/cabs specifically for acoustic instruments. Still nothing. But I can load up an IR of my own Acoustic Image Coda+ amp in an afternoon. There plenty of sites online that will tell you how to capture IRs of your favorite head, cab, mic, acoustic instrument or physical space so that you can take your amp etc with you; and even more that will sell you IRs so you don’t have to buy the cabs or spend the time recording them.

All of that is of course irrelevant for the people who either have a good physical preamp on their pedalboard, or are only using the Dwarf live and don’t need amp or cab modeling. These people do exist.

I won’t deny that the lack of good open-source plugins and the LV2 format is a limitation (which would be so awesome to see overcome), but a lot of the complaints about the Dwarf/MOD in general can be levied against ANY multi-effects unit. The format is inherently limited, but people choose it because the alternative is cycling through and carrying around lots of physical pedals. It’s a trade-off we accept. For me, the MOD system is the routing flexibility of a Eurorack-in-a-box with far more guitarist-friendly pedals. And I’m trying to sound like me, not emulate any famous players, so it contains more than enough “right” sounds.

One way to look at it is that it’s expensive if you wind up only using the same five effects all the time because all the others are useless. The other perspective is that those five physical effects would cost more and take up more space if they were physical pedals; and since new free effects that people enjoy are in fact being developed (hello @brummer), there’s still the opportunity to get new sounds without paying for more gear.

So, yeah, I would absolutely recommend it to other guitarists.

12 Likes

Sad to see you go, @Matt, especially since you’ve sparked so much joy.

I must say I understand your rationale and I too believe that, specifically for the guitar folks, proper IR handling is a must. Love it or hate it (I personally don’t care about IR at all), this is where the money is these days. Boss recently released the SY200, a glorified IR loader. Several lesser (and poorly built) similar units are now in the market and indeed they provide a good interface and decent sound results.

I also fully understand the personal workflow issue. Sometimes a piece of gear adds an unnecessary layer of complexity. It also brings to mind a 9-month struggle with a multi-effects unit I once owned. Instead of making music, I spent hours (and more money) trying to make it sound good, only to finally realise it would never deliver. Off it went then.

But there are two things we must consider:

a. Amp Models, no matter how good they might be, are never unanimous.

Even if MOD were to offer 10 super-duper models, chances are half users would scoff at them. Let’s face it, there are videos over videos of people whining about Neural (and a LOT of them lashing at their Quad Cortex, for reasons that are understandable), the Helix, HeadRush, and even the Kemper and Fractal. I myself own full versions of Guitar Rig and Amplitube and don’t like either in the least.

Therefore, if the entire process of porting an existing model (free or paid) to the MOD were either highly streamlined – meaning also that MOD could potentially consider hosting formats other than LV2 – and made economic sense to developers, just bringing whatever plugin solution that already pleases a user to Mod would be a common thing.

(I have to concede that LV2 and a lot of Linux / Free software / Open source stuff carries a bad stigma in some ways. They are nice, mostly free, “community” built and so on, but at times they just have no owners or people actively maintaining them. Developers eventually get jobs elsewhere and no longer put time and effort on them. Worse yet, I don’t know how many whatever killer – like GIMP, which would be a Photoshop killer – never came close to the performance of their supposed victims. Over time a lot of people got worn out and moved on to proprietary solutions, where people and/or businesses are responsible and liable for the results. MOD is in a different league altogether, since they offer a hardware/platform that is complete, as opposed to DIY thingies that promise you a Synclavier and deliver a Casio VL-Tone. Still, the LV2 format constraint is something that may stand in the way of the platform’s success. Not blaming the format, but the culture around it.)

b. MOD is a platform, not a multi-effects or modelling unit, though it does that too.

As a platform – and better yet, a vision – it can succeed or not. We all hope it does. Some may remember the Receptor, an extremely expensive VST host from the 2000s that was essentially a PC running Linux where one could install Windows format VSTs. It was for music was Blackberries were for the mobile phone world, and similarly they did not anticipate a number of things – mainly 64-bit plugins for the former and touchscreens for the latter. It vanished from the market, and people who had paid 3000+ USD for their machines were left in the void. In my opinion the MOD offers more possibilities all things considered, and given it costs 1/6th of what a Receptor used to cost, it is highly likely that it can capture the minds of everyday users.

I don’t necessarily agree that MOD was designed and caters mostly to electronic music makers: it was pretty much a customisable stompbox in its earlier interactions. The fact that it also hosts synths, sequencers and CV tools is more a consequence of its nature – a platform and ecosystem – than a purpose, in my opinion (of course anyone is free to disagree.)

And one thing is just fabulous in the MOD-sphere: you can create a full plugin on Max and port it to MOD, therefore not requiring serious programming skills. Beat that, competition.

Therefore, I think MOD has a lot of work to do – UI, improve key plugins, build others, fix glitches, etc – and that it will take indeed some time until it scares off some big guys in the room. With the right managerial and market decisions, it has everything it needs to succeed. Maybe some of us can’t want until then, but I believe there’s a promising future ahead. MOD needs to clear the way, be delivering all Dwarf units and wrapping up the Expression pedal, then focus on solidifying its platform, user base, and add components to it that will appeal to more and more people.

10 Likes

Not at all. I think the MOD team is amazing. It’s just that the Dwarf, in its current state, and despite being an impressive product, doesn’t meet my specific guitar-related expectations. I’m just letting you know where it fell short, in my estimation, because I suspect there are many other guitar players sharing my sensibilities.

@RashDecisionAudio I’m glad you’re enjoying the product. I have no trouble admitting that it is, in some aspects, very impressive. Yes, other guitar multi-fx units have their quirks, but almost all of them have proper IR support, lower latency, and can produce great results a lot faster.

I could address a lot of points both you and @QuestionMarc (thanks for being a great forum member btw) have made here, but an hour ago I took the American Sound pedal I’ve mentioned before from my closet, along with a BB preamp copy made by a local builder. I’ve plugged my guitar through them into my interface, used a free IR loader VST along with TAL Reverb 4 (on my PC, that plugin is not in beta), and I’ve effortlessly dialed in a great tone, which instead of making my wonder if I’m missing out, or making me want to ‘compare the knobs’ with some amp sim, made me want to record a jam into Ableton, and I guess that’s the gist of it.

9 Likes

That says it all, @Matt. You have the gear you need right now, and duelling with new equipment hampers your music making process. I can absolutely understand and agree with that.

In fact, I have not given up my Yamaha Magicstomps and Yamaha UD Stomp – and the Axon, of course. My baby! With those I can pretty much do everything I need and then some. If hell breaks loose between computer, interface, software, synths, etc., I can just plug it all in and play ad libitum. Which I understand is what you’re shooting at right now. So, go for it!

We wish you well and hope you’ll rejoin the MOD-sphere at some point.

6 Likes

Luckily enough you found tools already to support you on your musical journey. I totally get that the MOD devices are not equally suited for every need and expectation and wish you well for your future endeavours. Safe travels!

8 Likes

So, this project will continue? I know we lost the person who proposed it but after all the comments in this thread seems appropiate to continue with this in some way

4 Likes

Thanks a bunch, @eggsperde though this isn’t strictly true. As I mentioned before I have some experience with a large chunk of all the free and paid guitar plugins available on the market (not to mention some fx-units, real amps, analog gear, etc. though here, the experience is much less comprehensive). I’m no stranger to more complex signal chains, etc. That’s what made me interested in Dwarf in the first place.

That being said, I strongly believe that before I can venture into more complicated or experimental, I need to be able to dial the 'meat and potatoes of the tone in a quick and user-friendly fashion. It so happens that most of the other plugins I have at my disposal, and certainly the analog pedals I have access to, do a much better job at this than MOD. And what I’m missing I can simply do inside my DAW. Here MOD could provide some advantages if, for some reason, I had to unplug from my PC, which is currently not necessary.

@jesusperezsv I very much hope so. The selfish need was certainly a part of the motivation behind this topic, but I was fairly sure that both my diagnosis and the proposed solution were in line with what a large percentage of guitar players would agree with. The more quality options there are available on the market, the better it is for the consumers, and MOD is really not that far from being able to provide a very good experience to people who are primarily guitar players.

4 Likes

Care to elaborate? I fail to see how anything in my statement could be disagreed with.

Whether something sounds good or not is highly subjective, isn’t it? You might not find the quality of effects on par and noone could not argue with that. Because that’s what you hear and feel. I personally like what my MOD Duo outputs and because I tried out many pedals and amps as well on my journey, I can confidently say that in sum it is the most enjoyable system I made music with.

Godspeed!

3 Likes

Oh, I just haven’t found all the tools to support me on my musical journey yet :slight_smile: That was the part I was referencing.

Yes, the sound is indeed subjective, and it’s not like MOD sounds terrible. I’ve also mentioned that I’m not a cork sniffing tone monster, I’m just an n=1 guitar player who thinks Dwarf currently offers a sub-par experience for someone who’s primarily a guitar player. It’s as simple as that. However, given the fact that this topic seems to resonate with many other MOD users, I’m probably not alone in that assessment.

2 Likes

In some form yes for sure!

I think that’s the crux of it. In the studio, if you already have a Computer, DAW and interface, it makes a lot of sense just to plug straight in rather than going through 2 sets of ADC. The MOD device’s strength is in making plugins available without the computer and interface. Although I would like to better integrate with PC in the future for seamless transition between producing and performing.

And of course I hope that we can make the workflow of getting a good tone much faster and easier too

4 Likes

For those following this thread, please check the recent announcement by @falkTX at the Plugin Store Update List thread:

8 Likes

Please note we have other plugins coming for IR stuff.
The cabsim loader is something we made, but for more general purpose IR handling we are investigating a few possible solutions. Early tests are very promising.

9 Likes

Great stuff. This is actually huge.

With proper IR support, I can now actually recommend Dwarf to fellow guitar players. Not to all of them (those looking for a more streamlined experience and something modeling familiar gear would be better off going with a guitar-centric multi-fx), but certainly to those that would be fine with a somewhat random and a bit eclectic set of plugins, in exchange for more power and flexibility. Whereas before I wouldn’t recommend Dwarf to any guitar players I know.

There’s a lot of snake oil and “bro I swear I can hear the difference!” in the guitar world, but the difference in IR quality based on length is something that, to a certain extent, can be perceived by most folks with ears (which this video by Pete Thorn proved fairly well: GUITAR CABINET IR'S - How long should they be to SOUND GREAT? - YouTube).

The amp selection is still a major issue in my eyes but I’m glad you’ve made this crucial improvement. Good job!

7 Likes

What does this 42.7 milliseconds mean? real-time sound wise it is a lot, as one-time loading this is peanuts.

That is the maximum size of the impulse response file it accepts.
It is automatically truncated if bigger than 2048 sample points.

5 Likes

This refers to the supported length of the IR file which up until now was a subpar 2.6 milliseconds. So the Dwarf barely offered IR support (given that the degradation in IR quality is pretty obvious below around 10 milliseconds).

With this update, Dwarf finally has proper IR support.

6 Likes