The future of Mod Duo X (Dec 2022)

#14

Your inputs are very welcome, @dreamer.

You are correct that MOD has been firm in its intent to provide updates/bugfixes. @falkTX has mentioned that in various forms. I am personally inclined to think that even if MOD were to scrap any future plans for the X, it would continue to provide what’s needed to keep it functional – just like they’ve been doing with the Duo for so long.

(Not all forum members are technically inclined, which is why I think that long upgrade v. update discussion took place back during the reboot effort.)

Thank you.

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#15

Well for various reasons I’ve been unable really use my X and would really appreciate it not to die as I start to have time available to explore it. I love the platform concept and execution so far. I imagine it could have a bright future.

I’m assuming this thread is to discuss software, as the hardware is mostly good, with a few bugs.

I have zero understanding of the details of the mod platform architecture or how the dwarf and X diverge but i imagine there is both core and target device software modules to maintain Plus the essential hardware differences might be soaked up by drivers or OS builds.

So could future updates for X be relatively manageable, if the buisiness.decision is made? Either in house or divested such as OS community.

Could X be dwarf plus built in control surface? Could external hardware providing a similar surface be a useful addition to the dwarf thus adding motivation for X support?

Whatever decision is made, I’ve appreciated the hard work of the team.

Steve

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#16

@Steve_Lee,

Hardware production is currently impossible as some components became scarce and/or have prohibitive costs. MOD attempted to replace some of them but without success given their cash crunch early in 2022. So, at least for the time, we won’t see developments on the hardware side.

As far as maintaining existing Xs, we have already been told updates, bugfixes and other necessary improvements so that current plugins work will still be made available.

What we know so far is that some of the improvements that will come to the Dwarf will not be ported over to Duo X, and that is indeed a business decision on their side. The current effort is to bring the company to a stable condition, increase sales, deliver crowdfunding units (as a way to expand the user base), and hopefully improve the cash flow. If (and only if) that happens in a continuous crescendo there would be a possibility of Mod Duo X being picked up again for OS improvements and/or production – this last sentence being just an educated guess.

In the past there has been a long and at times contentious discussion as to paid upgrades. My own opinion back then was that is should not at all be a paid feature, but instead some parallel features (like Guitar Synth) should be optional. In the initial thread however I even waved the possibility of us X users paying extra so that features already present in the Dwarf come to the X. The fact is, in spite of Mod’s bankruptcy, the Duo X has long lacked some features. Whereas it is understandable – and understandable does not necessarily mean justifiable – that the main sales effort was going into the Dwarf, Mod has relegated its flagship and most powerful device to a lower priority.

The entire purpose of this thread is to hear from them what could be done, even with our participation, to lift the Duo X. Since they pledge to transparency in dealing with the valued community, we would appreciate to get some feedback and hopefully provide some input – material or otherwise – that can turn things around. In the past MOD has asked for our contribution in various forms, including when it comes to the stewardship of their business as a whole.

Whether or not they are steering the business to stability remains to be seen. Some of the business decisions can be questionable but still the purpose here is to find a technical solution that does not harm the business side of things.

Again, without a formal word, we’re left guessing.

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#17

Thank you for the clarification and recap. So let’s hope we get the formal word soon.

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#18

I, and I suspect some other users here, are aware that a reboot is very difficult.
And still in these difficult times.

An official, non-binding, rough, current status and what is realistic for you to implement at the moment would be nice to know.
In the near future a lot can change due to the uncertain times possibly some, then this is the actual state.
I don’t expect anything, I just hope. For all of us.

:four_leaf_clover:

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#19

@khz,

The entire Duo X saga didn’t play out well for Mod. Their initial version (LE) is different that the production version, and it has some limitations that angered users in the past. MOD decided to offer a trade-in option for LE users to upgrade to the production model. See more here.

Unfortunately, timing was not on their side. In 2020 some parts just disappeared from the market or had their prices go up a criminal 1000% (like the NXP chips). So MOD was badly constrained as to how many units they could sell. The X was supposed to be a major source of revenue for that year, as @gianfranco explained in the insolvency message. Part of the cash crunch of Mod Devices began right there in his words.

Months later, they were attempting to replace some components with others more readily available and/or more decently priced. Either due to time or money constraints, that didn’t produce tangible results (again, per their words).

My feeling is that, had they been able to re-develop the Duo X so as to make it ready for production, at some point in the near future, they could restart manufacturing those – give or take the fact that its production is not as streamlined as the Dwarf. Plus, they have a stance whereby the business case for the Dwarf as a multi-effect might be preferable, in spite of many people who are guitar/bass players prefering the X to the Dwarf (I am one of them.)

HOWEVER

This is just speculation at this point.

The supposed higher profit margin of the X may not be as tempting if the production is more complicated and there are more risks associated with it. There is the (sad) possibility that a relaunch without significant changes – such as from LE to production – won’t be possible. It might be complicated to source parts and that might also hamper Dwarf production to some extent. These are all real possibilities that we might have to face.

Again, without a formal word from Mod Audio, we’re just guessing. Sadly, their unwillingness to even touch this topic is beginning to scream in our ears.

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#20

I can sympathize with your position. Though in my case I was (am) a Duo owner who when the MDX was announced felt a little bitter and concerned that the Duo’s roadmap would be impacted negatively. In the grand scheme, I feel like the MDX was a misstep for the company, but that’s a story for another thread.

I think a good gesture by the company would be to make the full build process available so that owners of the device could apply their own updates. This would not need to be publicly available, but it could give device owners the freedom to apply changes or fixes from the community.

Acknowledging that this wouldn’t come free:

  • There could be legal and Intellectual Property (IP) issues since the private parts of the source code would need to be shared. MOD may need legal consultation and time spent reviewing and distributing NDAs. Even then there could a risk of leaks or improper use of IP
  • Someone would need to prepare thorough technical documentation and perform testing to ensure end-users can be successful
  • Owners making custom builds could likely find ways to sidestep the license checks for paid plugins
  • Owners might apply code changes that leave the device in an unstable state, or worse, interface with the hardware in ways that exceed specifications and cause electrical damage.

Given that the community has already stepped up to fund the survival of the company, maybe the costs of additional development time for this effort could also be funded and/or completed by a member of the community. For example, if we raise $X,000, that could cover the cost of hiring a freelancer or flying a community developer to the office for a few days to do the technical work.

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#21

The major companies deal with this by never updating software. You buy something from Boss, you are never getting a new firmware. They’ve got a tightly controlled cost vs revenue structure which ensures that they can continue to get people to buy new product year after year.

As a one man operation of Looperlative, I continue to upgrade even the 18-year-old initial units that I shipped for free. But keep in mind that my overhead to maintain the software side of the business is small.

MOD has employees and an office and other expenses. Seems to me that the right answer is to sell the hardware product, but make certain that the software end of the business makes money as well. Either more paid plugins or charging for major OS upgrades could make maintaining the MDX more attractive. Of course, the price point of the Dwarf is much easier to ship. The MDX is a fantastic device, but the retail price tag limits how many will be sold.

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#22

I could be agree not to upgrade my mod duo x if there wasn’t any bug…
But there are still issue.
Companies that doesn’t upgrade their devices sell devices much more simple than a mod duo x and bugfree.
I would be ready to pay to have new functions or plugin, that’s not a problem as the mod duo x is the most powerfull plaform and I couldn’t do the same thing with a Mod Dwarf.
I have mod dwarf but it’s not powerfull enought.
Without a Mod duo x up to date with looperlative for example I wouldn’t use mod devices anymore.
That’s said.

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#23

There are retailers selling MOD DUO X’s right now for full price of ~$899, with no mention of any of these problems. I think potential buyers should be notified by the sellers of these boxes, that they may end up orphaned. I just bought a MOD DUO X a week ago, but fortunately I bought it used from someone at a very good price. If I had paid full retail and found about these potential abandonment issues of the hardware by MOD, I absolutely would have returned it. As it is currently, I am even now “still on the fence” about selling it off again. Time will tell I guess. One has to watch closely how things are handled regarding this by MOD and in what manner.

EDIT: Looks like Perfect Circuit in the US has just dropped their price of a new MOD DUO X to $719 from $899.

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#24

I will continue to build Looperlative loopers for both the Dwarf and the MDX. This is not a limitation on the MDX. In fact, the MDX should have available the exact same revision as the Dwarf today. I release both platforms at the same time.

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#25

I used my MDX at the Santa Cruz Live Looping Festival this past October. It worked perfectly. It was the only effect box that I took. It did my reverb, chorus, delays and looping. Honestly it is an amazing device.

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#26

So you don’t think that someone buying an MDX new from a retailer should be told before their purchase that future support of the unit is questionable? That’s very odd. Why? You don’t happen to sell used cars do you? :wink:

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#27

I honestly don’t think that they are completely orphaned. Maybe it is the optimist in me, but it is an excellent device and it can still support newly created plugins.

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#28

That’s not answering my question

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#29

MOD devices been computers in the first place. Now, when you go to a store and buy a new computer, let’s say with windows 11, you’ll receive security updates from time to time, as long windows 11 is supported. The same is true here. It was clearly stated that it is NOT planed to skip support for MOD DUO X.
What was stated is that no new MOD DUO X will be produced in the near future.
Development will focus on the MOD DWARF. That doesn’t mean that you could throw away you MOD DUO X now. As long the modaudio company exists (*) you’ll receive updates for you device, when necessary. Clearly, it may happen that the one or the other feature gets developed didn’t make it to your device because hardware incompatibility, but, keep in mind, in that case it wouldn’t make it to it anyway.

(*) That is just what I understand from the statements I read here in the forum.

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#30

Yes, I also read all those statements. None of them appeared to me as being definitive nor very reassuring. There is also the fact that the entire company itself was just recently dissolved.

Btw- the MDX is not an “off the shelf” computer so your analogy to such doesn’t really apply. There are custom bits involved that if entropy sets in due to changes in other tech, it could very much turn these things into bricks.

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#31

What is the exact answer you are trying to search for here?

The Duo X is still supported with bugfixes and new plugin releases, which are 2 very critical points.
With the just released 1.12 it was updated just a few days ago to support the same things the Dwarf did on 1.11.
There is a 1.12.1 bugfix coming very soon (maybe later today or tomorrow), and as expected it will be released for the Duo X too.

The next 1.13 release brings a new toolchain for the entire build, needed in order to support new plugin releases (anything that requires proper C++17 or later, like new JUCE based plugins).
The Duo X has already been validated to work with this, and will benefit from being updated in this manner once the new plugins come along. On the short-term this is AIDA DSP as discussed here on the forums.

If there are breaking changes from any of our software, any fixes not related to new features can be easily back-ported so Duo and Duo X still move along side it.
Case in point: just yesterday I noticed while doing other things that Ctrl+X on a plugin or pedalboard search area would not trigger a new search, and fixed that. This same fix will be backported to Duo X, even though it is part of new v1.13 things.

The Duo has been on a very similar situation for much longer, and still gets updates to this day.
Not in the same manner as the other units, but it still benefits from bugfixes and plugins releases.

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#32

Thank you for your inputs, @falkTX.

Further to the initial belief from most here that MOD would keep providing support to Duo X users, your statement provides reassurance as to that intention. I have myself expressed such belief above – precisely based on what you’ve been doing with the Duo:

Now, for this question

If you’re referring to what @tllk had asked, then you have provided a comprehensive answer (assuming the “you” in your question refers to his previous posts.) We appreciate that. And by the way, we have also acknowledged that the recent 1.12 update brought improvements and (not only bugfixes) to the Duo X, for which we are thankful – and for which I personally thanked MOD in one of my posts in the the 1.12 release thread, other than mentioning that in this thread.

Now, if the “you” in question is all of us here, then the answer we are looking for is: what can be done to keep the X strong and well featured? This question is present in the initial post and in others below.

We are trying to devise ways in which implementation of some features of the Dwarf could also be present in the Duo X. This derives from my interaction with you in that same thread, whereby I was informed that Snapshot management would not come to the Dwarf due to a business decision. (Which, by the way, we repeatedly acknowledged and most of us are understanding of.)

What we’ve been asking here is to brainstorm a way so that these improvements could also be brought to the X, including the now twice-mentioned sponsorship by the parties interested. I mention that in the initial thread and lately @unbracketed waved that same flag:

For a complete answer to that question, MOD’s input is obviously of the essence.

For instance, if we were given a figure for the cost of porting those improvements over to the X, company and users could devise a coupon or other investment of the sorts so that we could dish the money needed to pay either you or a freelance/assistant you would hire to do that work. That’s similar to what you’re doing with the Dwarf, except that the cost in this case is only labour and therefore the risk is minimal, with cash-in going much higher than cash-out. Then the burden for MOD is minimal, the cost borne by the community, and everyone is happy – even those who did not pay for it.

For something like this to happen, we would need to hear from MOD if that is a possibility.

If instead turning the page on the X for whatever reason is what MOD is looking forward to, then all you need to do is tell us.

Hope this clarifies things.

What I believe he said is that it still supports newer plugins and then Falk said support will continue in very clear and specific terms, other than previous statements to that same effect. So there’s no reason Perfect Circuit should warn users that they’re buying some soon-to-be-dead unit, unless MOD specifically says that they will let the Duo X die out. And since they haven’t dropped the ball on older Duos, we always believed they would come through for the X.

That is a real danger to the extent that MOD uses a web browser in some external device. So if MOD Audio fails completely and at some point browsers no longer recognize the devices, we’d be locked out when it comes to building pedalboards.

However, as a standalone unit, it would still work.

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#33

On my personal opinion, and being very honest, don’t think there is much we can do overall at this point.
The software stack as used for MOD units and MOD Duo X in specific is niche beyond niche. We are dealing with low-level kernel things, realtime audio with LV2 plugins, a custom built OS based on buildroot and a few other tools all integrated into one.
There are very few people out there that know how to deal with an entire system like this as a whole, so any extra people coming in would need overseeing and mentoring, which is not very realistic right now time-wise.

Again ** in my opinion ** an area that could see some focus and get everyone to benefit are plugins, then documentation as well, perhaps marketing/promotion too.
I dont think of only making new stuff, but also contributing to existing projects.
Take the ZamAudio plugin collection for example, with some attention they could be made to work well on the platform.
LSP collection has been growing recently, even despite author’s life being made difficult and having to run from his own country.
There is also Sfizz, which will be the gateway to get sfz instruments working on MOD, consider getting involved with the project.
These are just a few examples, making new commercial plugins is also an option, as MOD grows we hope more revenue comes from plugin sales and not just units sold.
For the other areas of documentation and promotion, other people will for sure know better than me what is needed there.

Anyhow, work on those can happen along-side MOD Audio’s activities. Making the Duo X (or Duo or Dwarf) an awesome device does not have to involve working directly with it, getting the attention of plugin developers to port their stuff to the platform can also help the platform grow.

I dont think that is a real worry. When the plugin store went down, I was ready with ideas on how to put up a replacement, but was not needed in the end.
And for browsers to completely stop accepting regular HTTP, a whole lot of other stuff and devices would have to break as well, everything becoming e-waste. Dont think anyone wants that.

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