MOD is at a crossroads - and needs your input

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#13

This is what I would do from the coziness of my couch:

Using the profiler plugin from @deathbeard on discord https://faustlv2.bitbucket.io/profiler

  • this device could fill the empty spot in market guitar amp modeling of profile players only (kemper and QC are both profilers and players). If Kemper would release a new “Kemper Player” under $1000 would take a huge market percentage. This is the only chance to be successfull with an HW solution. Otherwise you have to offer something more (superior quality software) than competitors like Kemper and QC at a minor price.
  • Profiling could be sold for cheap as a service on the cloud.
  • Build a consistent store where it would be possible to get free and commercial pedalboards and plugins as well.
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#14

@gianfranco try to step away for a year - be with your family. Recharge for a bit and reflect.
There is potential in all aspects (as a guitar pedal, as a synth, as a bandinabox) but maybe more separated and community driven.

exactly that. Build one version thats simple and barebones, hast few knobs a few switches, no screens and act as a profile player.
The other is the profiler. more advanced with a screen.
If I can sell profiles to the “player” that’s maybe half the price of the profiler - I think you sell a lot of those.

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#16

They were pretty open about why they had to do this. They needed to sell more pedals in bulk to afford to keep going, it was their only way to get a cash infusion and sustain themselves. It definitely sucks and there’s no way to make it feel less shitty. That is the risk of kickstarter, unfortunately.

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#17

@redcloud interesting idea about leveraging existing hardware, built into a professional package with a full suite of I/O and onboard controllers… i don’t know enough about the ability of such an approach to meet very high audio QC requirements, but it would seem like a very effective way to reduce hardware dev and build costs.

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#18

As i cannot think of a successful and profitable community based hardware project, i think the only way to keep the hardware in the project is to go full business.
The only way to go full community is a software project that runs on different existing hardware (RasPi, RISC etc…)
If it is sustainable for you (and the team?) personally, i think the “full business” route is the best option. Your experience of the things that do not work could be a big asset for this. But at the same time in this case some decisions have to be made, that will be offensive for some people, especially in “the community” - but their support is lacking anyways…
In German: Wer für alles offen ist, ist manchmal nicht ganz dicht.

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#19

As said before, I knew it as I started to see Dwarf on commercial sites…as first backers I expect to be refounded somehow.

#20

Hi @gianfranco
I was literally about to buy a Dwarf when you made the announcement of mod’s insolvency.
I’m sure you can understand why a then held back, to see what was to come.
I’ve been chatting with a few people on here, (@jon has been especially helpful), and I’m still here hoping that a solution presents itself to you.
Even knowing the difficulties you face I am still trying to track down a Dwarf to try, I think the concept is fantastic
If you need to go down a more commercial road to keep it Mod alive then do what you think is best. I still have concerns of course, but I hope things start to look brighter, I especially hope I can see the website back to full strength so I can see more of what the device is truly capable of.
I’m watching for updates
Very best wishes
Mark

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#21

As a backer that opted to wait and now won’t receive anything but frustration for the money I parted with, I’d say get out of the business. Don’t look back. Enjoy your kids and teach them not to gamble on entrepreneurs with whimsical ideas and little business sense.

#22

Really sad to hear that! On first place should be family and relatives well being. So I think better to take actions which will help your family. The idea of ModDevices is really brilliant, and I think maybe you can find investers and give them an offer so the company will survive and will give opportunity to keep your family up. I know maybe it is sounds easy and naive, I’m just an artist, not financial advisor.
Hope your company and family will be good!

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#23

I’d like to see the product go Full Business. I see a lot of value in partnering with a Brand Ableton or Arturia for the ability to run load and run vsts on a hardware device like mod duo x. I especially like the idea of a collaboration with Ableton, because they have the MAX/MSP customization platform, which could be easily expanded on the Mod Platform, and still the option to port plugins via Gen and they have a history of supporting custom scripts for 3rd party devices. I could see a lot of value as a customer for having a DAW that works across the pedal form factor/mobile/desktop for one license with an analog signal chain and synced wireless to distribute CPU load. But I realize that is wishful thinking.

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#24

Hello @gianfranco

First of all I wish you all the best.
Take care of the family first.

In the end, only you and your partner(s) can decide which way to go with the MOD project.
Keep in mind that sometimes we must put aside the old things to make room for the new.

As a musician, I need to have products that can deliver what I need to achieve specific goals and that are cost-effective (I’m always on a budget).
So I don’t care where the MOD project goes (as long as it continues somehow).

I’ll be on the lookout for any projects you bring to the market, whether new or revisited.
And if it is necessary for me I will probably buy a “MOD” again.
Especially if support for current devices doesn’t go away one way or another.

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#25

@gianfranco and the rest of the Mod team: you deserve to be taken care of. While you are all brilliant and committed to the ideals of the Mod ethos, I say you should be part of something profitable. I agree that in an ideal world, you should leave the Mod completely open source… however, in the real world, I think it doesn’t actually make a lot of sense unless funding isn’t an issue.

However, because funding is an issue, then what you have to do is allow investors to come in (while hopefully remaining the majority shareholder!) and then make some compromises in order to keep the dream alive. I don’t feel community involvement will disappear if people can’t make their own plug-ins… in fact, to me, the involvement came from making really unique pedalboards and being able to share them.

Regarding whether Mod can compete with the likes of the big boys, I have used Kemper, Line 6, Quad Cortex, and have always had my Mod Duo on my board. All of these have switched from one to the other, but the Mod Duo has remained the one thing I never switched. I currently have a Quad Cortex, HX Effects, and the Mod Duo on my system. This past weekend, I just discovered there’s something the Mod Duo can do that even the Quad Cortex and HX cannot - that is to allow switching from one signal path to another and back and forth… that’s only possible because of the open source nature of the system - not because I can create any effect I want, but because you are free to route things any way you can dream. This is something that none of the other guys can do.

I vote to go commercial and proprietary. However, maybe you can have a side project that allows people to continue to program and to contribute to the development of other plugins… maybe have users with a history of effects creation be given access to the proprietary programming and allow them continued access?

In the midst of all of the struggles, I really can’t help but think of how Apple took open source Linux programming and commercialized it to make it the top tech company in the world. Did I get the analogy wrong?

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#26

Yes, @rogeriocouto makes a good point here: current Mod users will absolutely remain Mod customers. I have a Duo and a Dwarf and because the Dwarf is so crucial to my current live setup, I am 100% sure I will buy another Dwarf in the future as a backup. The Dwarf has not only replaced my guitar pedalboard and laptop, it’s BETTER to use live than both of them. I truly hope that regardless of which path you take, some investors finally understand that regardless of the open source nature of the software, the quality of the design and build of the Dwarf is something truly special that will absolutely appeal to many musicians of all types!

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#27

Hello @gianfranco ,

Oh, i’ve written a sermon, it seems…

thanks for pouring out what is on your heart and mind for what will become the next Musical Operating Devices adventure, although under a new name, I think.
First I want to thank you and your family coming through these tough times. It surely wasn’t easy for both them and you. Take time to rest. Sometimes you need to take a time out.

Something about my MOD user experience
From your visionary starting in 2014 at the Linux Audio Conference to the Mod Duo it was a really challenging way, and I both love my Mod Duo and Duo X LE and love the versatility of both of them. I use them for synth, acoustic and electric guitar with the Mod Footswitch and some MIDI controllers and they got both more stable and feature rich with every update. Sustainability is what I want to adress here. You need just a browser and the devices are sturdy and robust. Who would like to use their proprietary multiFX that came with bad parameterisation or didn’t work since Windows 7…
OT - Some remote control apps I use became unusable because of hardware getting too old (iPad) or because a newer app with extended features came that I had to pay for. -OT

You got the permission to include all these plugins, and maybe that was at first the culprit to me: To take time sorting out what effects, even in the beta store are useful and what plugins are missing.
This is what the main MOD experience was, and some users loved it, some hated it because competitors were more streamlined in their efforts building good sound presets. I sometimes wondered what was the difference between two plugins because of lack of documentation or missing references to plugins from popular brands.
The community grew by number and experienced people, and that is what I like about all of us. Highly experienced people with an expertise in their realm that want to help others. Now this doesn’t pay their cheques and costs their spare time…but I am so grateful to not hear one solution but sometimes multiple ways a problem could be solved. This is what is unique in a forum like this: service from user to user. Oh, I might have become a bit too enthusiastic…

There are some points I have to make that concern mostly the GUI and MIDI tools and options. I would love to see a different surface when programming synth parts.
Synth plugin ->SynthFX ->Direct Send + Aux Send ->Master FX chain ->Audio Out
Aux Send ->Aux Send FX chain ->Master FX chain ->Audio Out
I know the great MOD book of inventions and improvements has some pages written about.
Some guy I know has developed a juce-based AAX/VST/VST3/AU host I paid 79$ for that came with free plugins, but with some sounds, too. His book of improvements is filled for months coding time, and the community demands features here and there, but there sometimes are commercial alternatives. I sometimes thought he was in the same boat as MOD, Or, some inventions he made I would like to see on MOD devices. He is coding about 5 years, but the app was announced 2 years after he began writing code.

About MOD derivatives or projects that are based on the Raspberry experience: I heard of Pianoteq running with Zynthian, so I got one.
I didn’t know with future MOD OS versions Pianoteq could run on the MOD hardware. By the way, I love to use OBXD and the other synths like mda ePiano and setBfree as well as all others in the generator section, and I like to tweak them with the free architecture of the MOD experience.
I’d like to see more brand names to port their synths to MOD like u-he, maybe there is a way to incorporate these into the mod family.

About processing power, i/o capabilities and such some people mentioned before: I really don’t know if there is competition with just one audio input with some other entry level stuff when MOD could be the more expensive because of better A/D D/A conversion or because of build quality. In the end users should know what they want and the company what benefit can be made…
For the more expensive products like the MOD X: I would like the idea to put some class compliant audio hardware and to use this. Tracking dry signals and effected signal chains in the device with the audio recorder as well as the whole Mod device becoming an audio device when plugging into a computer. There should be an easy way to do this, but it is a heck of knowledge and experience to be known beforehand (OS driver integration, JACK…)

About the closed source parts or the intellectual property MOD Devices holds: I would not like to see what is elementary to the concept to be sold to big companies like the music tribe or Harley Benton (thomann).

About the licensing model: I don’t really know. I bought all plugins to show respect to their inventors. I was glad to give them something back. Was it the VeJa Titan that came for free that was a gamechanger for some users? I don’t remember exactly. If a developer teases with a good plugin that is free, one is likely interested to buy another one that will cost something.
I had a principle which might be well known. I put money aside until I had enough to buy something, I won’t use a subscription model, though. Maybe I would make an exception, but who knows if I can pay my fee in x years…

About funding and directly related to that about plans for future devices / software / internet commerce models: At first the company must know what to do or where to go for… Is there a market for product x? Is there a niche to be filled? Is there a company that is market leader and therefore can sell overprized?
I like the experience @jaus made. Sometimes mod units are used different than expected eing more flexible like a MPC, Maschine etc.

Some people have give good arguments here, and every opinion is valid and valuable.

Thank you for your time and God bless,. Marius

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#28

Obviously the first thing is to take care of yourselves; eight years is a long time to have been working on any project. I’ve always thought that, conceptually, it’s the best solution out there–modular enough to compete with the Poly Beebo but not as difficult to control, far more flexible than the Helix/Headrush/QuadCortex systems and others. I personally had a bad experience with the quality of an original Mod Duo, but I believed in the project and came back to the Dwarf. Both backed it on Indiegogo (Tier 3, sad trombone) AND bought a retail unit.

Looking forward, I’m disappointed to learn that since the reboot isn’t working you no longer retain rights to the IP for now, since we were told that no matter what there would be some way for users to access the plugin store again even if the reboot didn’t work. Perhaps that’s still on the roadmap and it’s just that we have to wait a little longer than the original two weeks you intimated, perhaps our devices are now simply as-is. It would be great if you could somehow release all the unpaid plugins as a bundle for each device and let us access the devs of the paid plugins directly, since they aren’t currently prohibited by the insolvency mediator from making money on their work.

I’m of two minds about whether to go full-business or full open source. Full business doesn’t necessarily preclude you from opening the platform to plugin developers. The Apple ecosystem is full-business but they have an SDK that allows people to sell apps that Apple didn’t develop–so you could theoretically still allow that even if the platform itself wasn’t full open source.

That said, there’s got to be a way to be open source and still make money, one that isn’t solely based on positioning yourself as a hardware manufacturer. Linus Torvald’s net worth is US $150 million, and he doesn’t charge for the Linux kernel. I’m not saying I know how that works, but someone does!

My concern–which is of course has been expressed ad nauseum by others in the past couple of weeks–is that my Dwarf is now frozen in time with only the plugins I thought to download before the insolvency. That’s not ultimately as bad as it could be; my Zoom MS-60B and my Roland GR-55 are also frozen in time and will likely never be issued another firmware update, and they like the Dwarf still work beautifully. But if my Dwarf is frozen in time, it does make me wonder if going back to non-programmable pedals that each do one thing well is the way to go. I imagine I’m not the only one.

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#29

Full business: here’s why.
I love my dwarf. I chose it over other open source options for a couple of reasons.

  • I love music and audio, but have no programming experience.

  • I love customising audio chains and creating unique sounds but don’t want to spend time learning to program. Pure data was a fun time of my life, but with a family and job, the dwarf is the perfect time:tinker:results ratio.

  • I love the simplicity design of one box does it all. It’s my synth. My looper. My effects chain. I would have called the dwarf “chameleon”

  • for this reason I believe a full hardware full business model seems most logical.

  • there are other diy options out there, and other more expensive pedal/synth options out there; but the dwarf truely caters for us inbeteeen musicians. Who want full creative control of music, effects, sound design, but are not programmers/computer hardware builders.

  • the dwarf is ready to go essentially out of the box; I didn’t need to assemble it.

  • having a strong hardware product is what made the dwarf different from the diy competition. It was able to replace so many pieces of gear instantly.
    My 2c.

Good luck Gian. God Bless. I’m with you whichever way you go. I wouldn’t blame you if you took time off also. :pray:
Jarryd

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#30

Sorry to hear the news. GO FULL BUSINESS. It’s hard to build a solid business plan, meet deadlines and forecast in community driven world. That makes it hard to attract investors. I love my Duo’s - yep, own 2. Great product supported by great people. Most importantly, you’ve poured your heart & soul into Mod to get this far and deserve get a little something down the road. Charge for plug-ins you develop but maybe you can still allow the community to keep making their own effects. I am learning to code thanks to mod. I have no issue paying for plugins - especially quality ones. If you do fold it up, no regrets, won’t be pissed, it was a good ride and I will keep using mine for as long as I can. I really appreciate all you have done.

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#31

I wrote a very long diplomatic response but ultimately I’m feeling impatient so forgive my coarseness.

You could divide these opinions into 2 groups: people either want a product or a project. Users don’t care about openness. They just want a thing that works.
Developers do care because it makes their job much easier to make their pet project work on the MOD when it’s open. It’s more fun to work in openness together. Devs get invested and contribute other ways to help the success of the ecosystem. The users group however is much larger than the devs and they don’t typically appreciate the gains they receive from being open. You will probably reach many more people by closing IP and creating a product and a business.

I want to express my appreciation for the openness you maintained with MOD. It was not an easy road you took.

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#32

@Jarrydactyl I love your whole post, but this…

I can’t agree with this more! I’ve taken it a little further by building some unreleased plugins, and would like to delve into creating my own, but the great thing is that I don’t have to. I’ve spent more time getting great sounds from the Dwarf than fiddling with it to get to the point where I can get great sounds.

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#33

I’d like to share a little story of being part of silicon valley startup rollercoaster ride. Since you never know if any of this experience can be applied here.

The back story:
A number of years ago I was sent, as a consultant, to a company in the San Francisco Bay Area that was working on an electronic device. All I was told was that it was a brain stimulation device, and to just make their app work. It sounded interesting, so let’s go.

I get there, make their control app work, and in those first few weeks learn that the hardware engineers both worked on the iPod, and one of them was a founding member of the company that created Firewire. He didn’t have to work any more, he just did it for fun. They had designed a beautiful device.

Soon after this the company secured millions in funding, hired me directly, and spun up very quickly to have sales, marketing, and more engineers. But big surprise, people are afraid of putting electrodes on their head unless they have really good pre-existing reasons to do so. This first incarnation of the company eventually came crashing apart after a few years.

But what happened here was really interesting. The CEO held the initial financing note for the company so that meant he got paid first from the insolvency. I think he also had a healthy bank account from a previous company being sold, but ultimately it all meant that he could bid back on the assets of the company if he was not part of it. So a grand plan swung into action! The CEO left. The CTO became the CEO. The few employees asked to remain on board were then moved to the CEO’s other company as employees. Then the bidding began. We were losing, but at the very last minute they called another company that they knew were bidding on the assets and offered to combine resources to buy the assets. The agreement was to split assets based on the world. We would keep North America, and they would get the rights to the rest of the world. It worked! At the very last second, it was around noon on a Friday, we became owners of the assets again! Then we changed company names slightly and started anew.

The kicker is that during this entire time, we were working on new technology. We were making the product smaller and cheaper to produce. And the other company did not gain any rights to that work.

This second incarnation went on for more than another year then it collapsed as well.

I know the pain of this period of time. I really do. Thankfully it’s more distant now that I work for a much more major and secure company. I think you should take the route that ensures MOD can live on while affording you time to experience your family. Don’t waste time with your family, you can never re-live it.

I wouldn’t mind at all if MOD were a more closed ecosystem with an established business with the financial clout to keep it going, with hints of Open Source. I’m pretty sure that whoever acquires the assets would still be required legally to offer at least portions of whatever they make of it as Open Source, just as MOD is required to because it’s built upon things with that type of licensing. You can rarely take Open Source and make it closed Source.

I feel like the plugin costs could have been a bit more.

I own a Duo and a Dwarf, so obviously I’d like to advocate for any route that can keep the devices usable into the future.

Don’t forget, it’s amazing what you all have built here. It really is.

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