Add support for scripts to accomplish complex tasks

[Dan_The_Man]

Hi,

I’ve got a request for scripting/marco support on the Dwarf, because I don’t think that Snapshots are the best solution in my setup.

My setup
My guitar setup is pretty classical: Wha, several distorion pedals, delay, reverb…
I own a Roland FC-300, which I use like a stompbox remote control → so each physical footswitch is assigned to one effect in my “standard” pedalboard.
So I’m pretty flexible during my play - in our Band there are a lot of parts that are not strictly composed, and I can react on everything the others play (or don’t play )

The task
Now there’s the task to change multiple settings by a single trigger. In the end I’d like to have one or several knobs to e.g. switch sound settings between Intro, Verse, Chorus, Bridge… each knob acting like a specific macro.

Problem
If I’d start fiddling around with snapshots in order resolve the task, it would mean that I’d require several snapshots per song.
And if there’s the requirement for a general change for a certain parameter in my setup it does mean that I’m forced to sync all snapshots somehow, while keeping all the differences of the other parameters.
The chance is very high that one would mess up something.

Solution(s)
Add some sort of script or triggerable macros that can be triggered by the standard triggers like:
Footswitch, MIDI Input or CV(?)

The single effects and their parameters must be somehow addressable on a pedalboard, otherwise snapshots won’t work.

So from my understanding it’d just require some commands that could do what is also done when a Snapshot is loaded, but easily editable and extendable from the UI.
e.g.

some trigger will do:
set effect[address1].on=true
set effect[address1].param[paramaddress]=127
set effect[address2].on=true

Maybe this could also be the ulitmate solution for request Feature request: Assign footswitches to multiple actions

I hope you could follow my explanations.
Maybe there’s already a solution for such problems which I might have overlooked?

[jon]

If I got it well, what you are trying to achieve is already possible, just with a different approach.
Have you looked around the CV plugins?
I suggest you take a look here.

Let me know if this does what you need.

[Dan_The_Man]

In my case CVs can’t be a solution, because a parameter can only be assigned to one control only (either NONE, DEVICE, MIDI, Control Chain or CV).
So when working with CVs I would lose my MIDI remote control (e.g,. for the On/Off switches).
Additionally I doubt that with CV’s I could handle several switch combinations in an easy way.

How should I realize these 8 theoretical on/off combinations with CV triggers?

Combination	Effect 1	Effect 2	Effect 3
1	off	off	off
2	off	off	on
3	off	on	off
4	off	on	on
5	on	off	off
6	on	off	on
7	on	on	off
8	on	on	on

[QuestionMarc]

@Dan_The_Man

How should I realize these 8 theoretical on/off combinations with CV triggers?

With this, for instance:

Logic Operators - MOD Devices

The gate values can toggle an effect on and off. Therefore, you are not using the switch/button to toggle effects – which as you already know can only be assigned to one action – but instead you are triggering a control voltage which can be assigned to multiple controls, board-wise. The use of CV for things like what you want is not straightforward, but indeed you can have one key toggle various effects and even invert it – i.e., the same button turns one on and the other off.

I’m severely time constrained right now, but I can try to put something together in the next 48 hrs so you can see how that works.

[jon]

@Dan_The_Man

In my case CVs can’t be a solution, because a parameter can only be assigned to one control only (either NONE, DEVICE, MIDI, Control Chain or CV).
So when working with CVs I would lose my MIDI remote control (e.g,. for the On/Off switches).
Additionally I doubt that with CV’s I could handle several switch combinations in an easy way.

I’m not sure if I fully got it. But if I did I believe that you are looking at it the other way around.
You can assign one of your MIDI controller interfaces to a single CV and then assign that CV to multiple parameters on other plugins.

Maybe I’m getting wrong what you are trying to say.

[PeterO]

I’m not opposed to the request, but please be aware the what you wish to do, is also possible if you use a more advanced midi controller like the Morningstar, that allows assignment of more than one midi message to a foot switch.
Or you could use the controller you have together with a Midi Solutions Event Processor (MIDI Solutions Event Processor; 10 Event MIDI Event Processor) and map a single midi message from your controller to a set of messages.
Just something to consider while you wait for the Mod team to implement support for scripts
And yes: You will need to assign midi CC’s to all parameters you wish to control, and that (sadly) excludes them from being directly editable by assigning them to knobs on the device.

[Dan_The_Man]

Hi Jon,

I suppose my explanation is just not clear enough or has got another perspective
I already know what I want, so I need to explain:

The “problem” I have is, that I’d like to fire a subset of different settings into my pedalboard. So pretty similar like a snapshot would do, but not for the complete pedalboard, only for a selected set of Plugins and/or parameters.

With CVs I can’t make it work or it would be very complicated (thanks for the idea @QuestionMarc).
In the most straigth forward setup where a single CV is assigned to some plugin’s On/Off switches, I only would be able to realize “all on” or “all off” with a single external MIDI CC command.

When follwing @QuestionMarc’s idea I could do it more sophisticated, and could realize other On/Off combinations. But of course this would mean that I need to program a lot of CV logic stuff around it, in order to realize the desired combinations + a lot of testing to check if all possible switch combinations are really working. If this is not planned well in advance, any required extension existing logic (e.g. maybe a new combination is required) could srew up all previous logic…

[Dan_The_Man]

@PeterO Thanks for the hint.
I already thought about this before. The FC-300 has also got a “Patch” mode where I can program a stream of MIDI CC messages etc.
I also could use other external devices to “emulate” my feet trying to switch 2 effects ON and another OFF within the moment between Chorus and Verse

While this idea is of course a possible solution, I honestly still find it too complicated to program or maintain.

[Dan_The_Man]

Until an easy solution comes up I think I need to go with pedalboard snapshots.
But here’s the next task (and maybe extend to my problem description above):

It doesn’t seem to be possible to directly call a certain snapshot assigned to one or more of the DWARF’s knobs? So something like one can principally do with MIDI Program Change commands.

I know that I can also step through the list of snapshots if assigned to a Footswitch Group or directly from the snapshots menu.
But stepping through the list or using extern Program Change commands currently have a potential problem as well.

If I’d generate snapshots in a way like this:

1. Song1:Intro
2. Song1:Verse
3. Song1:Chorus
4. Song2:Verse
5. Song2:Bridge
6. Song2:Chorus

Generally stepping through the list could work.
But what if I need to add another snapshot for Song1:Outro? It would be added at the end of the list then. Hard to reach it with stepping.

So currently I feel a bit trapped - but maybe it’s just a lack of knowledge.

[jon]

Thanks for the clarification @Dan_The_Man.
I think we already have pretty a lot of info here to better understand the use case.

On the snapshots issue, that is something that we are aware and it’s already sort of mapped to be improved. Be able to re-order/re-organize snapshots. Personally even I would love to have that.
Currently a bit of a “dirty” workaround that you can use is to re-save all the presets on that list with the correct order and then delete the first ones that are in the incorrect order.

[spunktsch]

@Dan_The_Man

Generally stepping through the list could work.
But what if I need to add another snapshot for Song1:Outro? It would be added at the end of the list then. Hard to reach it with stepping.

you can rearrange the snapshots directly on the dwarf.

[QuestionMarc]

Thanks for the clarification, @Dan_The_Man.

From what you describe, it looks like snapshots are the way to go. If you’re not changing pedalboards entirely but just toggling effects on/off as needed in different songs/parts, it is the MOD equivalent to what other units call “scenes”.

All you need to check is if the change is fast enough for your needs. (I never used snapshots do I can’t tell).

My initial post was in response to the following points:

@Dan_The_Man

CVs can’t be a solution, because a parameter can only be assigned to one control only

No. CVs can be assigned to multiple plugins. So the same gate that turns one effect on can switch another one off.

@Dan_The_Man

I doubt that with CV’s I could handle several switch combinations in an easy way

Yes, you can. However, in the scenario you posted (that 8-row table), snapshots probably handle that better.

The real benefit of using CV would arise when, for instance, you want to turn a knob that will increase the gain in one pedal while decreasing the volume in another. That can be done also via midi CC, but MOD offers that functionality on board.

@Dan_The_Man

It doesn’t seem to be possible to directly call a certain snapshot assigned to one or more of the DWARF’s knobs? So something like one can principally do with MIDI Program Change commands.

If I understand correctly, you would like to have a list of X snapshots and, instead of just cycling through the list, go straight to a certain one, is that so?

I am not sure you can do that in the current state of affairs, BUT here’s where CVs could help.

From your previous list

Combination	Effect 1	Effect 2	Effect 3
1	off	off	off
2	off	off	on
3	off	on	off
4	off	on	on
5	on	off	off
6	on	off	on
7	on	on	off
8	on	on	on

say, if you wanted to go to item 2 – OFF - ON - ON – to 7 – ON - ON - OFF, you could set a gate trigger to simply turn effect 1 ON and effect 3 OFF.

However,

@Dan_The_Man

[…] this would mean that I need to program a lot of CV logic stuff around it, in order to realize the desired combinations + a lot of testing to check if all possible switch combinations are really working.

Yes.

Therefore, you need to weigh carefully whether or not the transitions/scenarios you want can be programmed via snapshot as a previous arrangement for your performances or if you need something you can enable on-the-fly.

For the

• Song1:Intro
• Song1:Verse
• Song1:Chorus
• Song2:Verse
• Song2:Bridge
• Song2:Chorus

type of scenario, snapshot sshould to it.

Instead, if you need to be able to move within those parts randomly, then a CV or MIDI controlled solution is preferred. If the singer in the band chokes in his beer and you need to throw an impromptu guitar solo while he catches his breath – and therefore bring that scene/preset from 2 songs ago, you can have a midi command recall that. Better yet, with midi CCs you can also operate CV controllers!

@Dan_The_Man

The FC-300 has also got a “Patch” mode where I can program a stream of MIDI CC messages etc. […]
While this idea is of course a possible solution, I honestly still find it too complicated to program or maintain.

I would respectfully disagree here: a powerful and highly customisable MIDI controller can be one’s best friend. Back when I used the FCB1010 I had this one “emergency” switch that would bring the solo settings back—which I repeatedly used because our singer repeatedly choked on her beer. With my current Softstep 2 the only thing I can’t do is make them bloody mosquitoes go away.

But yes, it’s a bit of work to get it all set up.

However, if you need to have your gear ready for a performance and have some options/escape routes to be used in certain situations – hopefully not your singer choking – then it is a very good way of doing it.

When you first wrote, I started building a pedalboard to showcase these capabilities. It’s halfway done and unfortunately I am severely time constrained right now to make any promises, sorry. It will not be until late September that I will be able to unpack my MOD (it’s going into the box this weekend!)

Good luck!

[jon]

@spunktsch

you can rearrange the snapshots directly on the dwarf.

Thanks @spunktsch! Something that I failed to write in my statement…this lack of arranging possibilities is only on the WebGUI. On the Dwarf you can do it on the device.

[Dan_The_Man]

@spunktsch @jon
The possible option to rearrange the snapshots on the dwarf directly sounds promising.
I have version 1.11.6.2909 installed, but don’t see any option?!

I guess I need to access the Pedalboard/Snapshot menu by pressing foot B&C and then toggle with A if necessary.
Then I see “SAVE”, “-”, “REMOVE” assigned to the buttons below the knobs…

I suppose I need some guidance or I found a bug…

[Dan_The_Man]

Thanks @QuestionMarc for your extended reply!

I started building a pedalboard to showcase these capabilities. It’s halfway done and unfortunately I am severely time constrained right now to make any promises, sorry. It will not be until late September that I will be able to unpack my MOD (it’s going into the box this weekend!)

Don’t worry. You already described enough that I should be able to try it out.

@Dan_The_Man

CVs can’t be a solution, because a parameter can only be assigned to one control only

@QuestionMarc

No. CVs can be assigned to multiple plugins.

I wrote that because using CVs I would lose my direct control e.g. from the MIDI CC On/Off switches which represent my “classical” guitar pedalboard.
Of course, I could keep that, if it would be possible to construct a CV arrangement that could handle both:

• Single on/off control of every important plugin with a couple of keys (MIDI CC) from my FC-300
• selecting several favourite combinations from my theoretical combination table above with another couple of keys (MIDI CC) from my FC-300

@QuestionMarc

If I understand correctly, you would like to have a list of X snapshots and, instead of just cycling through the list, go straight to a certain one, is that so?

Yes indeed.

@QuestionMarc

I would respectfully disagree here: a powerful and highly customisable MIDI controller can be one’s best friend.

I don’t disagree. But the question is if it would be required to do so?! For me my task seems straight forward. So why to add a complex solution if there could be a direct path?
I think my setup and usage is very classical in comparison to a “real” guitar pedalboard. I decided to use the FC-300 because of its keys and 2 expression pedals.
However I could have also decided to build my setup based on the MOD Dwarf and the MOD Footswitch only.
I would still have ended here, not owning any external MIDI control at all.
And such simple setups (Dwarf+Footswitch) seem to have a lack of functionality:
It doesn’t seem possible to easily call any favourite pedalboard snapshot(s) (like your “emergency switch”) with some single buttons directly with onboard ressources.
Or like my wish does: calling just a subset of required actions written down in a script.

I really appreciate the help to make it working . But if a “direct” or even a “quick&dirty” solution would be there I’d prefer it against any additional complexity.

[spunktsch]

@Dan_The_Man

It doesn’t seem possible to easily call any favourite pedalboard snapshot(s) (like your “emergency switch”) with some single buttons directly with onboard ressources.

Did you check out this solution?

Map snapshot to one of the switches (Dwarf)

As Julien says, midi could do this easily. So if you : add a midi plugin (the infamous mindi - MOD Devices) that send a PC-5 message (for example) to the midi output cross the checkbox of the new “Virtual MIDI Loopback” option to send every midi message getting out of the moddevice back in it (like if it was another midi input) you can assign a footswitch to the midi plugin and name it “snapshot 5” I think you get what you asked, a bit triky though !

[Dan_The_Man]

Thanks @spunktsch
Yes, I already fiddeled around with it yesterday, and it didn’t work.
But I tried again just now and I can now tell that it generally does work.
The only disadvantage with the infamous mindi is, that its buttons toggle instead of acting momentary.
So if I program 2 buttons, one for Verse and one for Chorus, I need to disable/switch off each one after a single use in order to prepare it for the next use.

[Dan_The_Man]

@Dan_The_Man

The only disadvantage with the infamous mindi is, that its buttons toggle instead of acting momentary.

Forget about it - the buttons can be configured in their behaviour…the setting is just inside the buttons “Advanced” menu
So @spunktsch thanks for the tip again!
So here we have a solution to realize something like “Quick Load Snapshot” functionality.

…anyway…I keep the request for scripts open

[James]

On the topic of snapshots, indeed it would be nice to assign a button to recall a specific snapshot. I hope we can make that possible soon

Another thing we have have talked about is being able to exclude specific parameters from snapshots. Meaning that recalling a certain snapshot can ignore certain plugins so that changes you made there aren’t reverted when you change snapshot again

I have a feeling these 2 things would help you and others out a lot and could remove the need for custom scripts. Interested to hear what you think

[Dan_The_Man]

I tried working with snapshots in the manner I explained above yesterday.
And I experienced that ignoring plugins and/or parameters during snapshot loading would be very helpful!!

@James

Another thing we have have talked about is being able to exclude specific parameters from snapshots. Meaning that recalling a certain snapshot can ignore certain plugins so that changes you made there aren’t reverted when you change snapshot again

Finally I couldn’t use the snapshots for playing a song. The simple reason is that I have a Volume/Gain plugin in the end of the mod pedalboard audio chain. This volume is then controlled with my expression pedal.
Loading a snapshot recalled the volume to my “saved” standard value of 0 dB. But of course during play I made use of the pedal - so recalling a snapshot always resulted in an unwanted “jump” of my current audio level.
Here I would have definitely excluded that parameter from being recalled!!