As @PeterO stated above, it is not a mistake in the specs, when it comes to the output.
The TRS outputs in the Dwarf are balanced, meaning that audio is carried through 2 conductors plus one for the shield/ground. Therefore, one must employ TRS or XLR connectors.
Balanced outputs allows for longer cables with less overall noise. They’re suitable for recording equipment or in large stages, where the musician is too far from the Mixing/PA system.
Even though TRS cables are also used for stereo signals – or in some cases, to carry both magnetic and piezo signals from a guitar (Brian Moore is an example), balanced and stereo are different things.
Thanks, @PeterO. @jdkniepkamp that’s exactly why I only agreed with the part of your post mentioning that it could be more accurate on the documentation.
This is not a mistake, you simply didn’t know what means TRS.
That’s a good news if dwrf have TRS input, it means it can receive balanced signal for professional use.
I think there’s not many pedal that use balanced signal.
It’s a mistake to mention TRS inputs and NOT mention that they only utilize mono function per input.
Many of the explanations make sense here - as to why TRS was used, even when the stereo capabilities were not. I appreciate all of those.
The only issue I needed to understand was that function. For instance, it I went to use a TRS cable to plugin my stereo instrument, only one channel would function, and I’d need to split the path to the 2 inputs using another adapter. I can much more easily get the TRS to mono output cable to do the same job, and won’t then need an adapter.
The full understanding of the capabilities of the inputs were not clearly defined, and most guitarists who see TRS inputs immediately think “STEREO INPUTS! YES!”.
Anyway- they did end up modifying the specifications, and that’ll certainly help any other folks like me with delusions of grandeur understand how to proceed with spec’ing out our own studios to make this equipment work for our needs, and it’ll also help in purchasing decisions. That’s really all I needed to achieve with the question.
Hi @jon
Can you confirm that Mod Dwarf have 2 TRS input like it’s mentionned on the web site?
so there’s a mistake in thomann description where it’s mentioned that it has asymetric input. And on your website it mentionned that Dwarf has unbalanced input!
It can’t be TRS mono input if it’s unbalanced.
So what the truth? https://www.thomann.de/fr/mod_devices_dwarf.htm
the Dwarf has an unbalanced asymmetric TRS input and a balanced symmetrical TRS output.
This is not true, TRS simply refers to the connector type. This becomes important information when connecting a microphone for instance, as with a TS input one needs to make sure the “cold” connection of the mics XLR goes to to the sleeve of the jack. Having TRS inputs makes the Dwarf compatible with XLR to TRS cables, and not just XLR to TS cables which are less common.
I can understand this can be confusing so I’ve updated the Wiki with these clarifications and will ask the team to update the info elsewhere too
Ok that’s the first audio device I see with TRS unbalanced input. In my job TRS automaticaly means balanced signal because we never plug a balanced audio device in a unbalanced one without converting balanced signal to unbalanced signal to avoid signal loss and respect audio signal range wich is +4dbu for balanced and -10dbu for unbalanced signal.
So if I understand, Dwarf input is a -10dbu input? What is the maximum level accepted?
Yes - I use a TRS jack to XLR cable to plug my Dwarf outputs straight into the multicore stage box every week and it works perfectly! It’s great not having to take up a couple of DI boxes.
There is one “gotcha” to watch out for with balanced TRS outputs though:
If you’re going from a device with a TRS balanced output (Dwarf) to a device with TS input (e.g. Amps, most devices with jack inputs!) it’s important to use a cable with mono/TS plugs (e.g. a standard guitar cable) rather than a stereo cable - otherwise you can end up with no signal or a very low level signal that’s full of noise.
This is because the output sockets in the dwarf have separate contacts for the Tip, Ring and Sleeve; but the TS connector at the other end often only has contacts for the Tip and Sleeve. With a stereo cable this can leave the Ring disconnected, and so there isn’t a way for the signal to make a complete circuit.
When you plug in a mono jack it connects the ring and the sleeve together at the TRS end, which ensures the circuit will be completed, so all is good
This isn’t a reply to your original question re TRS but is a description on how I achieve the dynamic stereo effects you desire with my mod duo. I use 2 instruments harmonica input 1 Guitar input 2. Each has its own FX chain and each splitting to stereo via stereo plugins then both stereo fx chains go to output 1 stereo left and output 2 stereo right This does mean that both instruments will go to the same two channels of my mixer (panned hard left & right) but are tonally and volume balanced within the mod so that the mixer channels are left flat i.e. the mixer only has control of overall volume of both instruments all other control is done within the Mod.
This is something the Dwarf already handles internally
Oh - I just tried plugging my dwarf into an amp with what I presume is a mono jack input using a stereo cable and it doesn’t work (or at least it’s extremely low level) unless I partially remove the plug from the amp.
So the Dwarf doesn’t appear to be auto detecting and switching from balanced to unbalanced output?
Wishing I’d brought a mono jack cable but that stereo one was just the right length…
I might be completely wrong on this, but I think it’s the insertion of a TRS plug that the Dwarf detects. It is then sending a balanced signal out. If you plug in a TS cable, the Dwarf will send an unbalanced signal.
Thanks @malfunction54. What you’ve described sounds like standard behaviour when you have a balanced out on a TRS socket:
If you connect a TRS jack cable you’ll get a get the signal on Tip and Ring and ground on sleeve.
If you connect a mono TS cable the longer sleeve connects one leg of the balanced signal via the ring to the ground on the sleeve and so you automatically get an unbalanced output (which is what you’d want if you’re using a mono cable).
@Jan seemed to be describing some other kind of behaviour, where maybe it detects that the ring is open circuit (when, like in my instance today you use a TRS cable to connect the dwarf’s TRS outputs to a the TS input on an amp) and so switches to unbalanced mode with all the signal on the tip and nothing on the ring, but maybe I’ve misunderstood…
Either the amp plug is not TS (which is rare for instrument amps) or your cable has the “hot” (positive) is running on the ring in at least one side, which is unusual. If I were to bet on something, I’d say your amp plug is not TS, because it responded to your pulling the plug halfway out.
(Power amps – the likes of Crown, QSC etc – would most likely take balanced signal in. Musical instrument amps, specifically those for guitar and bass, have in their vast majority unbalanced inputs. Keyboard amps vary, but most these days are also balanced input-only.)
And if that’s happening, the hot is getting shorted with the ground. You’d get little or no sound if that happened, other than a lot of noise.
So I’m wondering if the TRS cable you’re using has a connection that is mixed between the 2 sides? That would actually confuse the Dwarf or any device that auto adjusts for balanced and unbalanced signal. Do you have a multimeter to test the cable or another cable to try?
(Of course, it can always be a fault with the Dwarf itself.)
You’re not. If a system detects the isolation between negative and ground – which happens with a balanced connection, it is precisely the insertion of a cable that does not mix one with the other that would enable the balanced signal. Upon inserting a TS cable, it should detect that negative (ring) is mixed with ground (sleeve). That is precisely @ianr’s description here:
Now, I gotta say some dedicated amp circuits (special ICs or microchips) these days may have other ways of doing that, so I’m not sure how the Dwarf handles it.
Balanced cable TRS for input and output only makes sense if the external device also has such an input/output.
A guitar has normally a unbalanced output.
Therefore it makes little sense to use a TRS to the input of the Dwarf.
With Dwarf output, a TRS cable can be useful if e.g… the mixer has a corresponding input.
The manual of the respective device probably provides information here.
The Dwarf can tolerate both types of cords.
