A conflict between Open Source and Business

I haven’t posted for a very long time but I still think MOD is a good idea and hope things turn around financially. I hope my plugins have added value both to the user base and the company. I wish I could participate more fully in the community and further development but life just hasn’t headed that way for me.

Regarding this extremely difficult topic of business vs open source ideals, I’ve thought a LOT about this so lets talk business.

I think most of us agree that from a consumer perspective MODEP and Zynthian really are not competitors. It’s unfortunate that business partners are not able to see that the same way we do but they are typically taking much larger risks than we are for our single device, so we can forgive them for being cautious. I like the idea that MOD devices should openly acknowledge derivative products using the mod SW and but it should discuss both to a consumer and investor perspective why those products actually make mod a stronger business.

I believe even now several customers, some plugins and some bug-fixes have been brought to MOD from these outside communities. That is some value. Perhaps that could be quantified and would provide a good enough business case to settle these concerns.

However I think maybe those communities could offer more value still to MOD (and therefore, this community). I don’t have a definitive answer, but I think that is something worthy of some community think-tank time.

MOD could offer sale of the images these communities are using. This would require some effort on the part of the MOD team. Those communities would (hopefully) see the value in the maintenance and new features MOD is providing them and be willing to pay some, even though someone could do the same for free using the source (but it seems they did so once but are not maintaining). This is similar to one of the paths how the Ardour DAW monetizes. The biggest risk here is if those users would expect the same support as mod users, this path could potentially create more cost than revenue. Perhaps they would accept buying something inexpensive without promise of support?

Perhaps these binaries can have the tokens that would provide them access to the services they currently don’t get? Getting more users producing pedalboards and buying through the store might help produce more value from these derivative communities. But would someone who paid $40 for a pi and soundcard pony up $10 more for a plugin in the store?

I agree with jon that there should be way more for-sale plugins in the store. I think the comparisons to Android aren’t exactly clean because android has basically one competitor: Apple, who only provides it’s software to one hardware manufacturer: also Apple. There was a time that there were alternative OSes, (windows, firefox, ubuntu) but virtually there are none now. This is a stark contrast to the music device landscape where MOD competes with Line6, Helix, Zoom, I have no idea what all else. It’s very competitive. However the business model of android is compelling because basically once they have the OS out there, revenue from the app store is practically free: indy devs make and sell apps, consumers buy apps and in-app stuff, store takes a small cut, repeat, profit. Google was selling their nexus devices hardware at a loss to get more uptake (which helped kill the windows phone and other competition) because that’s not where the money was. Not sure about the pixel. But anyway, for MOD to profit from such a model it requires a fairly substantial amount of money exchange in the store.

Perhaps one answer is a micro-transaction model. Maybe some pedalboards could be for sale, maybe plugin presets, maybe even different skins. The more content that could be generated by the community and exchanged for a price, even small, the more money that comes into MOD. If this is the desired model it makes sense to lower the barrier to entry for content as much as possible. Currently developing a plugin and selling it is the only path that has the win-win synergy. It also makes sense to cast as wide a net as possible so you should encourage other projects to use the MOD ecosystem.

I’m a cheapskate so I love free stuff (I also love sharing my work as open source) but perhaps it should be changed so every plugin cost $.10 by default, basically just a convenience tax for using the store (so no DRM needed). Most FLOSS licenses don’t prevent selling them. If you don’t like to pay then go ahead and build it yourself and install with ssh. But buying them is the most convenient way. Getting everyone used to buying plugins and some being cheap and some being expensive can help attract more developers. To help alleviate concern about the costs maybe every device would come with $50 of plugin store credit (which might also help make buying a device from MOD more tempting than the 2nd hand market). Of course this has issues: clever people will make it much easier to just install plugins without the store, some devs may get ruffled feathers if someone is selling their plugin without sharing a cut, or we could quickly end up with millions of garbage plugins for cheap.

Anyhow, I’ve rambled enough. I just think that the way to remove this angst between partners and derivative products is to 1. find a way to monetize from derivatives, or 2. have them generate content that adds value to MOD users. I’d love for others to chime in some better ideas. I suppose none of them will matter until the reboot happens, but I understand that being armed with a strong business plan will certainly help with moving forward.

Regardless: best of luck to us all.

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I’m guilty of many charges here.
Not having the economical means to buy mod ( after I tried it on modep ) . I went and tried to run myself upstream mod software from github on pi 4 with great success. Sure its a pain to compile all the plugins and make custom mod-ui’s by hand but I’ve learned a lot on the way.

Still have my PiSound that I use for many other purposes that I could not with a MODdevice. And to be brutally honest, I lately run mod-host+ui just for a handful of plugins that arent even created by mod, but feels nice to have the fancy UI in that way. Even more so , now I’m using them on my main laptop machine without mod environment since I really dig them.

I think as others mentioned, that I’ve introduced moddevices to much more people with my experiments than damaged the company, for which Im not a target unless I had a pretty excelent flow of cash and plenty of gigs ahead, which isnt the case in the last 3 years.

Cant say that I contributed in any way to the project positively, appart of using someone elses libraries to compile puredata patches etc etc.

Im sorry for the company actual state but again. Zynthian for instance (at last for me) its not a competitor at all, personally I find the interface really ugly , hard to use and unnecessary. PiSound is really general purpose , and if its a problem that modep can run on it, maybe would be good to discuss under which license to release such things to avoid things as modep and people profiting for it. Its not fair that us “nerds” and amateur coders pay the price for others making profit on it, since we usually sit at home yelling at the computer when it doesn’t work due to our lack of knowledge.

My 2239 cents

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Hi everyone!

After reading through the comments I also want to voice my thoughts about this.

I bought the original MOD Duo right after its release, and I also bought a Pisound module and tried MODEP for about a year now. That said, I basically only use my Duo when I play with other musicians. The displays and the footswitches are a crucial part for using the device effectively.

I understand that it must be hard, when you see your hard work running on other platforms and you feel like they are earning a fortune on your back. Especially when your investors tell you they won’t give you additional money because of this.

But let’s be brutally honest, about 90 percent of all musicians don’t even know what a RPI is, and even if they do, they don’t care to get a Pisound, ssh into it, set everything up and try to connect to the webgui inside their network. And then they are still stuck with a MOD Emulator without shop access and no updates for years.

The same amount of people you really lost to these platforms were probably brought back through your superior hardware.

The real problem is, that MOD failed to appeal to the other 90 percent of musicians that aren’t already nerdy enough to be interested in such a complicated platform. If you would have connected with these people, there would have never been a problem with open source.

Maybe there should have been a dedicated desktop and phone app to access the GUI and an easy way to create small, simple pedalboards on the fly.
Your features and the platform is awesome, but your marketing and the accessibility for non-technicians is what really hindered your success.

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Hi everyone,

Without claiming any authority in business management or open source software, a few considerations come to mind.

Being absolutely non judgmental here, I believe that is indeed a problem because more than once I’ve seen people say/ask if “the Mod is just a RaspberryPi in a fancy box”. Check one of these instances here.

Speaking strictly of multi-effetcs units – being that the MOD is much more than that, each one has its own operating system/firmware and the effects/models are written in a certain form. So whether or not a third-party can write a plugin for them depends on their offering an SDK of some kind, which most major players do not.

Years ago when VST hosts were a thing, users could simply install their proprietary software and play. They were mostly Linux-based and the ones that were top of their games had decent audio hardware. However, they were tremendously expensive, some were large – the Receptor was 2U and required keyboard, mouse and monitor for a number of things – and not as fast as a good computer with a good sound card.

(When plugins transitioned to 64-bit, that wiped away VST hosts due to the lack of a stable operating system with drivers for all hardware in place.)

MOD solved a number of these issues by employing high quality audio hardware, speed, a friendly GUI, standalone operation, all in a small form factor, stompbox-like encasing (Duo and Dwarf), competitive price, while also packing synths, sequencers, etc etc.

The choice for releasing the OS as open source along with some specific requirements for plugins, however, brought along two issues: first, MOD has spent considerable effort and funds to develop something that could be repurposed by competitors and required that even existing LV2 plugins – which are not that many and mostly ignored by bigger players in the market – be adapted in some way. With that, precious time and funds went into software units that, regardless of quality, did not create a very straightforward experience and, in spite of numbers, did not particularly cause much impact in terms of perceived quality.

WIth that comes MODEP, which had the perverse effect of making people think that MOD is just an overpriced hardware.

Therefore, my humble assessment is that MOD has created a dual-faceted identity, one that appeals to the tinkerer and open-source enthusiast, and one that caters to the experimenting musician who wishes to dwell into technology. But with most musicians not being too much of one or the other, the bulk of the market is left to compare Mods with their perceived competitors, such as the HX Stomp. In 2020 the latter’s price was 450 Euros. With a mature ecosystem and wide user base, it is easier to capture the eye of the prospective buyer.

Then there’s another problem:

Without being able to try a Mod device somewhere, it’s hard to pit it against other competitors. The scarcity of units in the market and relatively small number of retailers make it harder for someone to dish 500 Euro if there are well established competitors at that price point.

Whereas social media gear channels can help draw attention for some products, that alone does not overcome its little impact in terms of sales, distribution, and market-wide adoption.

There is a sad but present stigma against “open-source” and “free software”, and I believe MOD devices sadly did not overcome the perceived ‘experimental’ and DIY-ish aura that it carried from birth, hence the constant comparison with PiSound and Zynthian.

Lastly, the company invested quite dearly in OS development and customer satisfaction, but it did not create a bigger picture identity for its products. Coupled with audacious projects for extra hardware (footswitch and expression) and the development of the Dwarf while the Duo X was still the ‘hot’ product, it might have created an impression that Mod Devices was a gang of highly capable, rapt, inventive and well-intended individuals but without a more market-oriented and/or business-inclined mindset.

Whereas “open source” is not a liability of any kind, whereas business can thrive with products that employ free libraries and OSs, and whereas most of the problems with the production itself had nothing to do with MOD’s audio stack being open-source, Mod’s aura of “open-source”, “community” and “collective ownership model” a is all too pervasive and might have damaged the reputation of the business. Added to the delays in development (for various reasons, not only Covid), it creates a scenario where the entire “mission” of the company gets tarnished and the investment in the continuation of its “vision” and “core values” loses the appeal to market- and product-oriented investors.

The below statement summarises my entire assessment here:

to which I almost fully agree. There still could be issues with “open source” due to the general misconception and prejudice, but if you buy it and it works, you don’t really care what’s under the hood. “Dis-complicating” the operation and UI is a must.

Please don’t take this assessment as personal criticism.

(I disagree with some of the assessments that compare this situation with others in which the software is OS: very few internet users know that a lot of the “vessels” used for navigation are open source, but they expect the value coming out of it, be it security, stability, ease-of-use, etc. Very few phone users know or care that Android or iOS is open source of not, they want the value out of their phones. By the way, I heard from several app developers over time that the App Store was a much easier and predictable environment to create an app because of iOS’s unity, as opposed to the many flavours of Android. And the AppStore for many years had a much higher number of apps than the Play Store.)

True, but consider this: for the software, only if MOD’s own version of it is superior in form and function. And for the hardware, only if the user experience is more straightforward and the overall product is more polished. If PiSound/MODEP looks like a smaller and cheaper Mod device and if the Dwarf fails to create a rising uptake wave, then just letting the world know that it is superior to the competition does little or nothing to help.

I saw Mod Duo X’s ads in my webmail site. Then I watched 2 Benn Jordan’s videos and was truly impressed – especially that of the quick jam. I purchased the Duo X as if coming from a mature business with a well established product.

The new Mod Devices needs to convey this message.

(I, unlike others here, did not at all buy the Duo X because it’s open source, even if I’m OS enthusiast. No criticism implied in this statement.)

That is my assessment as well, from the outside and without any internal info.

Agreed, even with the difficulties of building hardware at present.

However,

That’s what KVR and Muse Research did. The former became a modestly relevant plugin reseller and the latter failed entirely.

You do not want to abandon your platform and hardware. Quite the opposite.

(I would also tend to agree with others who think the development of the Dwarf right when the Duo X was still on the rise might have been a mistake. Perhaps delaying the Dwarf and its fundraising and solving production issues for the X would probably have generated more revenue and less expenditures on the company’s side.)

Absolutely. It’s the ripoff feeling I had with IK Multimedia’s iRig.

Hope you can find encouragement in this post. Not that I present many options, but I think you can ‘rebrand’ the business and make it successful, even at the expense of some of your initial goals. Not ‘selling out’ and going full-throttle into biting elbow business acumen, but partnering with investors to form a more business-oriented company.

I most sincerely hope you make it.

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** Opinions expressed here are my own for the sake of discussion and not those of the company **

This doesn’t mean abandoning anything. The platform and devices are the vessel that allows revenue to come in through online services and marketplace

I think the issue here is that there are two unique topics being discussed:

  1. Should the software be open source? as in does that benefit the company in some way?
  2. Should the company use the fact that it is open source community driven as a point to lean on when marketing to customers and investors?

In the case of Android, you’re right, users don’t care that it’s open source and that is not a consideration or an appeal when buying, BUT, I believe that the fact it was open source absolutely contributed to it’s success.

In the case of MOD:

  1. I think that 3rd party hardware and users would contribute positively to the success of MOD (but perhaps currently don’t). I think that with a dedicated manager of the software, there could be a more structured contribution from external developers and MOD that could allow for acceleration of the maturity of the UX. The lack of good plugins is a chicken and egg problem, you need more developers making good LV2 plugins for users but you need more users to create the demand for that. I think that expanding the user base and developer base is much needed and 3rd party would help with that.

  2. The fact that the software is open source is indeed as you say, very much not important to the target audience (at least it is not important for them to know even if it may benefit them). It’s already well known that the UX needs to be simpler and more inviting to guitarists, not programmers, and that is already being worked towards. I can understand that there is some confusion that MOD devices are just like pisound or whatever else. I think there could be a more defined distinction between them. I was already thinking for a while that the “MOD OS” or “MOD GUI” needs an actual brand name. As in the engine that drives the platform. Perhaps it could be split into 2 versions. The open version, which third parties can use but that should have integration with the MOD plugin store and pedalboard sharing, AND an official MOD version. The 2 versions could have obvious distinct names and perhaps a different look.

So perhaps the reboot pivot could be that:

A) Development is managed better so that there can actually be gains made from having willing contributors in the open source community. Better cooperation could bring valuable resources, data, revenue and users and developers to the platform. Essentially the platform should be SHARED between 3rd parties working together with MOD rather than DIVIDED and DUPLICATED where there is confusion and a lack of actual cooperation.

B) MOD should entirely scrap any mention of open source as a selling point. Put aside any complicated technical aspects of the products and platform that we may find appealing but are interpreted as negative by the layperson or investors

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:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

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Maybe I’m misunderstanding and I think I’ve read it in posts before: what (user) data is collected about us?

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Currently almost nothing. The goal would be to have user accounts with an opt-in to measure some kinds of usage data to identify where things can be improved etc

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Thanks for the quick answer to my question. :+1:

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Moderators…I clicked the wrong button and deleted my post. Any way to restore?

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Fixed :+1:

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I [reluctantly] agree with this. I think anyone who really cares will find out. Not that OS status should be hidden but it doesn’t need to be advertised. I think the only point the average musician may care about is that MOD has an open SDK so anyone can add plugins. Maybe that there’s a large collection of DRM-free plugins (which sells better than calling them open source).

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Yeah exactly. It’s not like you need to hide it, just don’t lean on it

Guitarists don’t care that anyone can make plugins for the platform, they care that there are good plugins on the platform

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the fact that various paths exist for adding custom plugins within the MOD platform is one of the key unique features which attracted me to MOD devices. …and the fact that such a capability is combined with a well-designed, stage-ready, and flexible hardware effects solution made it the only line of products which fit my particular niche!

so, while i agree that the various “open” aspects of the MOD ecology need not be a primary selling point, i maintain that those things shouldn’t be buried too much in the presentation and marketing; they do give MOD a unique advantage in the marketplace and open up entire categories of users beyond folks looking for guitar stompboxes.

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Sorry, I was taking to the letter @gianfranco’s words when he said “migrate” from hardware to marketplace. I guess then he meant expanding the online business, not replacing it.

I also might have not expressed myself well when commenting Android and Open source. I agree with you that being o-s helped a lot, no question about it. Regarding your questions:

  1. This is not at all a problem per se, depending on the mindset of the investors AND how well you can demonstrate that it is advantageous for both users and company.

  2. My point was precisely saying NO to that question – in a delicate and respectful way. Not sure why the recent deal fell through and what objections were raised, but if this is something getting in the way of your development, then the answer should be clear. You worded it a lot better by saying

Yes. As a selling point, it might be damaging your reputation or placing MOD under a light that makes it look like overpriced hardware running with free software and other people’s free time work under the hood. Like I said, you want it to look like a polished product emanating from a solid company.

However, at this pivotal time, my word of caution is:

You need to present a more compelling case and possibly back it with solid data. “Coulds”, “shoulds” and “woulds” won’t cut it. I am very positive you have a valid point and I can see the value in sharing the platform – and even in having the “lesser” MOD platform available and a better and more functional one restricted to your devices (I wrote about this in another message).

If the investor is going to put money into a “better management” for the open source portion of MOD, they need to know exactly how that is going to play to their advantage. A belief in the “pros” might not be enough

To paraphrase you, I [ABSOLUTELY] agree with you here. Not hide or disguise, but still use it and pitch the advantages in terms of tangible gains.

And absolutely agree with you here as well.

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Thanks @James

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Note that my reluctance was because this is admitting that I am not the target market. Not really anything else.

However I think MOD really needs to decide who the target market really is. The device and system is capable to serve very well for a pretty broad range of musicians, but unlimited tweakability isn’t actually ideal for a lot of use cases.
I was going to argue against this statement:

But really: that’s correct. Guitarists don’t. Engineers, producers, digital artists, synthesists, or other plugin users really do. Those are the sort of details that need to get decided. If it’s for traditional guitarists, just show the best and make the interface so it’s easy to use them. If we are advertising for a musician coming from other plugin backgrounds, then they want more flexibility. They want to know they aren’t locked in. The product designs for these two markets are actually at odds. Trying to appeal to both ends up with a bland product that neither group quite feels is perfect. I think it makes most sense to pick one and try to get a reasonable market presence before expanding into the other (which will probably need a different product, interface, and marketing strategy).

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It already has been decided a while ago. We just haven’t been succesful in marketting to them yet, and the UX and plugin offering still needs to be tailored better towards them

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Good morning gentlemen

I am very happy with the input from everyone on this topic. Probably one of the nicest non-product topics I ever had here in the forum.

I almost get to regret not posting such a theme earlier, but I refrain. The conditions now are very specific and the calamity of the moment helps to have a more unfiltered discussion :slight_smile:

There are some overall comments I want to make and also some individual replies.

1 - The users

First and foremost, if it was not clear in the initial post, I am talking here about the spin-off commercial projects that use our software and how they hurt us.

I am, in no way, blaming users. I sense that some people here are feeling “guilty” about being MODEP users and are sort of apologizing. The MODEP team even posted a letter here in the forum - Blokas Letter to MOD Community - in which @Pranciskus writes:

Nobody is blaming users. I am making a direct critic of the people who run those projects. If it was not clear in the original post, I hope it is now.

2 - The constellation around the hardware

Second, is that the difficulty I am trying to express is related to the business side of things, especially the relationships with other business partners and also investors.

While software distribution can be scaled almost in a limitless way at no cost, hardware does not. Distributing hardware means moving material, which costs money.

While software startups can work mostly on their own, hardware startups MUST create an entire constelation of partners, that extends from the raw material suppliers and the whole supply chain to the brick & mortar shop at the very end of the distribution. Everyone in the constelation is moving material.

Everyone in this “material moving chain” is taking a risk, after all, material costs money.

The difficulty I expressed with my post is related to the creation of this constelation of “material movers” when there are cheaper “copies” of your product obtainable elsewhere. Retailers and distributors are absolutely scared of that, as it undermines their efforts and threatens their sales.

As I mentioned before, I know the products are not the same. But for the ones who do not know, these products are a “cheap knockoff”.

In order to get all this material moving, money has to be thrown into it and that´s where investors come in.

Similar to the dealers, investors get very afraid of these cheap knockoffs for two reasons:

  • it gives foundation to their natural fear of open source, as the knockoff just exists because it is open source
  • it diminishes the interest in the business, as the knockoff removed the “unique” from our “selling propositions”, and if there is one thing investors want, is a unique selling proposition.

Who, in his sane mind, will put money in a project that makes 500€ products that can be “copied” and sold for less than half of the price???

I know that the sentence above is very imprecise and shallow, but that is how non-musicians and non-techies see it.

To make it even worse, because we are community-based, news inside the community travels fast to the point that these knockoffs are available before we can even put our feet on the real market. Both Zynthian and Blokas were already selling devices with our system before we even released our 1.0 software and got the CE and FCC certifications…

Feels like those movies where the prom queen arrives at the prom just to discover that many girls are using the same dress…

3 - The customers

I am glad to read that many here have passed through Blokas before opting to buy a MOD device.

The comment I have about this is that, in the adoption curve of a technological product, you have groups of customers that adopt the product as time passes and the product gets more popular.

What is Technology Adoption_2

The first two groups - innovators and early adopters - are essential for the success of moving into the first big group, the early majority.

It is quite a bummer that we start with competition and segmentation of customers already in this initial phase. Instead of getting full support from these initial adopters, we are actually already sharing a market from day one.

I hope this helps to clarify my point :slight_smile:

As I said in the original post, I am expressing the difficulties we had when trying to make a product as we did. It is not about finding culprits not blaming someone, but more of an exhibition of the bigger picture, so that everyone can reflect on it.

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** Opinions expressed here are my own for the sake of discussion and not those of the company **

I agree with this and I still have hope that MOD could take more advantage of the 3rd party presence. I read crossing the chasm and they talk a lot about what it takes to establish yourself as the trusted market leader. You need to be the biggest fish in the pond, not the only fish in the pond. Being the only fish would surely indicate that the pond has dirty water. I think the point is not to worry about what the other fish are doing but to focus on being the best fish and making the most of the situation rather than trying to change it. If the product has value, there are always going to be knockoffs whether the source is open or not. If there are no knockoffs that just suggests there isn’t demand for the product. I guess the ease of which people can make knockoffs and how similar they are could be changed.

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